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ZenDen
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07 Jun 2016, 1:17 pm

marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Exsanguination, suffocation, poisoning, and kinetic impact are just as lethal as a bullet to the brain.

Suffocation is slow and extremely uncomfortable. Poisoning can also be very slow and uncomfortable if you don't have access to the right kind of poison. Kinetic impact might be fast if you're lucky and jump from high enough elevation. You still have the risk of surviving as a cripple if you mess it up. It's possible to survive a 100 ft fall if you're (un)lucky. A bullet is by far the easiest way.

Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves. If someone doesn't want to live any longer they shouldn't have to. If society insists on stopping people from killing themselves, society should also insist on alleviating intolerable suffering.


"Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves.

Then what about just slowing them down so they can get their bearings after an unhappy phase? Do you feel this too intrusive?

But in the case of a life long disability there is little one can do if someone else decides, eventually, to take their own life. And in fact I just read today Canada is about to legislate and legalize certain suicides.



marshall
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07 Jun 2016, 6:43 pm

ZenDen wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Exsanguination, suffocation, poisoning, and kinetic impact are just as lethal as a bullet to the brain.

Suffocation is slow and extremely uncomfortable. Poisoning can also be very slow and uncomfortable if you don't have access to the right kind of poison. Kinetic impact might be fast if you're lucky and jump from high enough elevation. You still have the risk of surviving as a cripple if you mess it up. It's possible to survive a 100 ft fall if you're (un)lucky. A bullet is by far the easiest way.

Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves. If someone doesn't want to live any longer they shouldn't have to. If society insists on stopping people from killing themselves, society should also insist on alleviating intolerable suffering.


"Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves.

Then what about just slowing them down so they can get their bearings after an unhappy phase? Do you feel this too intrusive?

But in the case of a life long disability there is little one can do if someone else decides, eventually, to take their own life. And in fact I just read today Canada is about to legislate and legalize certain suicides.

Sometimes it isn't just an "unhappy phase". If someone has had years and years of unhappiness and misery they shouldn't be forced to live. Society has no obligation to provide a decent living for people, it has no business telling people they must live.



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07 Jun 2016, 7:00 pm

Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege.

Only the persuit of happiness is a right.


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AspieUtah
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07 Jun 2016, 7:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege.

Only the persuit of happiness is a right.

Just as money is the root of all evil was actually the love of money is the root of all evil. Proper phrasing is always necessary.


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Fnord
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07 Jun 2016, 7:05 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege.Only the persuit of happiness is a right.
Just as money is the root of all evil was actually the love of money is the root of all evil. Proper phrasing is always necessary.
Exactly.


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cathylynn
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07 Jun 2016, 8:07 pm

marshall wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Exsanguination, suffocation, poisoning, and kinetic impact are just as lethal as a bullet to the brain.

Suffocation is slow and extremely uncomfortable. Poisoning can also be very slow and uncomfortable if you don't have access to the right kind of poison. Kinetic impact might be fast if you're lucky and jump from high enough elevation. You still have the risk of surviving as a cripple if you mess it up. It's possible to survive a 100 ft fall if you're (un)lucky. A bullet is by far the easiest way.

Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves. If someone doesn't want to live any longer they shouldn't have to. If society insists on stopping people from killing themselves, society should also insist on alleviating intolerable suffering.


"Anyways, I don't think it's the governments business to prevent people from killing themselves.

Then what about just slowing them down so they can get their bearings after an unhappy phase? Do you feel this too intrusive?

But in the case of a life long disability there is little one can do if someone else decides, eventually, to take their own life. And in fact I just read today Canada is about to legislate and legalize certain suicides.

Sometimes it isn't just an "unhappy phase". If someone has had years and years of unhappiness and misery they shouldn't be forced to live. Society has no obligation to provide a decent living for people, it has no business telling people they must live.


90% of the time when people attempt suicide and fail, they get help and don't try again. it was an "unhappy phase." i agree with you that the other 10% that always want to die should have that option. you would know that if you read the whole thread.



marshall
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08 Jun 2016, 8:23 am

Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege.

Only the persuit of happiness is a right.

I never said that. I said suicide should be a right for people who can't find happiness. Keeping people who are nothing but a burden alive just to suffer is sadistic.



Last edited by marshall on 08 Jun 2016, 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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08 Jun 2016, 8:27 am

cathylynn wrote:
90% of the time when people attempt suicide and fail, they get help and don't try again. it was an "unhappy phase." i agree with you that the other 10% that always want to die should have that option. you would know that if you read the whole thread.

But who determines that? What about people who have "gotten help" but are still miserable? Why do you just assume there is "help" for everyone? Why do you just assume popping the right pills solves everything (and that's all they do most of the time these days, throw pills your way) when many times it doesn't do s**t and causes horrendous side-effects. I've been in and out of mental hospitals enough to know that isn't the case that you can just "get help" and be better. When they get someone off the street, all they do is make some determination that they are "stable"... then they dump them back on the street. You are naive as to how the real world operates. It doesn't give a f**k about people's suffering.



gingerpickles
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08 Jun 2016, 10:59 am

The article indeed doesn't call on a ban. But how do you know a loved one is going to try to start and hide the pills and guns.?

But your stats on other hand need at least 2 cross links. Stats often call failed attempts simply OD on paper.
And as mentioned earlier women are not so quick to pull a trigger and have a closed casket.
Men are more decisive on the issue so buy a gun to be sure it is a done deal. Because flinging off a building is terror before painless actual death and OD sometimes can be saved before final moment. Also study must include study with survivors of "self Inflicted" gunshot. If they fail it is a big scare and they become part of accident stats instead suicide.

As others have mentioned this is a bandaide on a cut artery. Soon as pressure is off the bleeding will happen anyway.
Mental health should be a number one concern in this depressing economy with so many stressors from environment.


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09 Jun 2016, 6:52 am

marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege. Only the pursuit of happiness is a right.
I never said that. I said suicide should be a right for people who can't find happiness. Keeping people who are nothing but a burden alive just to suffer is sadistic.
I know you didn't say it - I said it because it needs to be said.

As for keeping people alive who are nothing but a burden ... I dare you to speak that line directly to the parents of a disabled child.


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ZenDen
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09 Jun 2016, 11:37 am

marshall wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
90% of the time when people attempt suicide and fail, they get help and don't try again. it was an "unhappy phase." i agree with you that the other 10% that always want to die should have that option. you would know that if you read the whole thread.

But who determines that? What about people who have "gotten help" but are still miserable? Why do you just assume there is "help" for everyone? Why do you just assume popping the right pills solves everything (and that's all they do most of the time these days, throw pills your way) when many times it doesn't do s**t and causes horrendous side-effects. I've been in and out of mental hospitals enough to know that isn't the case that you can just "get help" and be better. When they get someone off the street, all they do is make some determination that they are "stable"... then they dump them back on the street. You are naive as to how the real world operates. It doesn't give a f**k about people's suffering.


You say: "But who determines that? What about people who have "gotten help" but are still miserable? Why do you just assume there is "help" for everyone? Why do you just as...............ETC."

Hi marshall. I believe cathylynn, when she said "you would know that if you read the whole thread" was referring to my point when I said " And in fact I just read today Canada is about to legislate and legalize certain suicides." which was agreeing, in part, with what you describe. OK :D ?

No one condones endless suffering....we're on your side.

d



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09 Jun 2016, 12:53 pm

Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege. Only the pursuit of happiness is a right.
I never said that. I said suicide should be a right for people who can't find happiness. Keeping people who are nothing but a burden alive just to suffer is sadistic.
I know you didn't say it - I said it because it needs to be said.

As for keeping people alive who are nothing but a burden ... I dare you to speak that line directly to the parents of a disabled child.

I never said happiness was a right. I don't appreciate being talked to as if I was a child born yesterday. That's what got me. My opinion is that if society cannot or will not do anything to alleviate suffering, a suffering person shouldn't be FORCED to live. Life is never going to be perfectly happy for everyone, but I think people should at least be able to exist in some marginal degree of comfort. Also, it is a fact that the bureaucracy of our society treats disabled people as if they were a burden, especially when the disability is not easy to diagnose or physical in the obvious sense. I NEVER said I agree with the idea that any human being should be treated as a burden. I'm merely stating the way it is.



marshall
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09 Jun 2016, 1:07 pm

ZenDen wrote:
You say: "But who determines that? What about people who have "gotten help" but are still miserable? Why do you just assume there is "help" for everyone? Why do you just as...............ETC."

Hi marshall. I believe cathylynn, when she said "you would know that if you read the whole thread" was referring to my point when I said " And in fact I just read today Canada is about to legislate and legalize certain suicides." which was agreeing, in part, with what you describe. OK :D ?

No one condones endless suffering....we're on your side.

d

The problem is these laws still don't respect suffering if it is something subjective or something that can't be physically proven. I'm certain there are cases where severe depression is not situational but is being triggered by some unknown physical aberration in the body. I believe I am one of these people. Not a single anti-depressant has fully helped me. Many days I feel unwell in ways that are impossible to describe, but more akin to falling ill with the flu than simple emotional distress alone. Since I have such strong physical symptoms and sensations that are completely beyond my control I strongly suspect it is more than "psychological". I'm not personally considering suicide, but I believe it should be an option for people who feel like I do, especially if they are less fortunate than me and don't have any family support. I can't imagine being in that situation. I can't imagine being both sick and completely on my own.



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09 Jun 2016, 4:19 pm

marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Happiness is not a right, it is a privilege. Only the pursuit of happiness is a right.
I never said that. I said suicide should be a right for people who can't find happiness. Keeping people who are nothing but a burden alive just to suffer is sadistic.
I know you didn't say it - I said it because it needs to be said.As for keeping people alive who are nothing but a burden ... I dare you to speak that line directly to the parents of a disabled child.
I never said happiness was a right. I don't appreciate being talked to ...
I see the problem now. You think that I was posting only to you, and not to everyone else in this thread, as well.

If I want to say something directly to you, I will reply directly to one of your posts or send a PM to your inbox. I might even preface the post with the words "Dear Marshal" or "@Marshal". Otherwise, don't assume that I even want to talk to you.


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