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Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2017, 4:54 pm

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
What we should always have known, now we have the evidence.


Has this been confirmed outside of Wikileaks?


Wikileaks has never published falsified information, Edward Snowden said that he believes it to be authentic.


here's a link to the times story if it helps you digest it

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/worl ... cking.html


But they certainly are particular about who and what they investigate and uncover, which shows they are definitely one sided.


Bias != false. I don't think they are biased either. They rely on others to leak them documents and they publish them. The people who provide them documents may have a bias in which documents they give them however. So unless they are hiding a trove of documents they didn't want to publish, it would be a hard assertion to prove.


Then why are they not exposing Putin's secrets? That guy literally has skeletons in his closet - - skeletons of all his critics and political enemies who have "died," or just disappeared. Why haven't they exposed whatever Putin is holding over Trump? I'm sure it constitutes more than Trump's fondness for water sports (and I don't mean jet skiing).


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Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2017, 4:58 pm

But here's a question for the Trump/Putin fan club - - why so gleeful about hurting American intelligence, especially when this could cut into fighting enemies such as Islamic terrorists and North Korea, or potential enemies like Russia?


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08 Mar 2017, 5:13 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But here's a question for the Trump/Putin fan club - - why so gleeful about hurting American intelligence, especially when this could cut into fighting enemies such as Islamic terrorists and North Korea, or potential enemies like Russia?

Oooh. Because it is the duty of every American citizen to hold its government to account when it acts unlawfully. Fallout be damned. Read your Thomas Jefferson (you know, the founder of the Democratic Party). Moreover, read Thomas Paine (a man who, for his time, made Jefferson look like a Reaganite). They both would have been getting in a lot of faces if something similar to this scandal had happened in the 1790s. So, I must ask, why aren't you as angry as they would be?


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Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2017, 7:42 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But here's a question for the Trump/Putin fan club - - why so gleeful about hurting American intelligence, especially when this could cut into fighting enemies such as Islamic terrorists and North Korea, or potential enemies like Russia?

Oooh. Because it is the duty of every American citizen to hold its government to account when it acts unlawfully. Fallout be damned. Read your Thomas Jefferson (you know, the founder of the Democratic Party). Moreover, read Thomas Paine (a man who, for his time, made Jefferson look like a Reaganite). They both would have been getting in a lot of faces if something similar to this scandal had happened in the 1790s. So, I must ask, why aren't you as angry as they would be?


But I'm sure Jefferson wouldn't agree to putting the country in danger when there hasn't been any evidence that a certain means of intelligence gathering has been used to endanger liberty and privacy.
Yet, it's the Trump/Putin fan club who are all for violating the rights of gay Americans by supporting homophobic business owners who want to discriminate against them. Or violating the rights of trans Americans by allowing states to determine which public restrooms they can sh*t in. Or violating the voting rights of Americans of color with voter suppression laws. Those are genuine threats to liberty, but I don't hear a peep about that from the Trump/Putin bandwagon.


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AspieUtah
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08 Mar 2017, 8:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But here's a question for the Trump/Putin fan club - - why so gleeful about hurting American intelligence, especially when this could cut into fighting enemies such as Islamic terrorists and North Korea, or potential enemies like Russia?

Oooh. Because it is the duty of every American citizen to hold its government to account when it acts unlawfully. Fallout be damned. Read your Thomas Jefferson (you know, the founder of the Democratic Party). Moreover, read Thomas Paine (a man who, for his time, made Jefferson look like a Reaganite). They both would have been getting in a lot of faces if something similar to this scandal had happened in the 1790s. So, I must ask, why aren't you as angry as they would be?

But I'm sure Jefferson wouldn't agree to putting the country in danger when there hasn't been any evidence that a certain means of intelligence gathering has been used to endanger liberty and privacy....

Jefferson invented and used his own encryption method he called the "wheel cypher." It served its purpose for 147 years. So, it would seem that he might have been the Binney or Snowden of his generation. He knew a lot about the encryption methods of his era.

So, would Jefferson have lied or covered up official acts if they violated his conscience? Considering he was the man who wrote in July 1774 that "...the whole art of government consists in the art of being honest," and also wrote on March 9, 1821 that "...time produces also corruption of principles, and against this it is the duty of good citizens to be ever on the watch," it is clear that he believed that government must be honest while the citizenry must be watchful of that government.

Combining these facts and statements, Jefferson appeared to support moral government over the corrupt alternatives. When government fails in its attempted honesty, Jefferson doesn't suggest that he would cover up or lie about it.


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kraftiekortie
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08 Mar 2017, 8:46 pm

Contrary to Jefferson's own impression of himself, Jefferson wasn't above politics.

I like Jefferson. I don't believe his distaste for slavery, despite the fact that he was economically dependent upon slaves, was hypocritical (but try telling one of his slaves that!) His views weren't as "enlightened" as he, himself, thought. But it is still much better than someone who blatantly advocated slavery.

At times, Jefferson was ruthless to his political opponents, even as he, publicly, constantly maintained his "neutrality."



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08 Mar 2017, 9:00 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
But here's a question for the Trump/Putin fan club - - why so gleeful about hurting American intelligence, especially when this could cut into fighting enemies such as Islamic terrorists and North Korea, or potential enemies like Russia?

Oooh. Because it is the duty of every American citizen to hold its government to account when it acts unlawfully. Fallout be damned. Read your Thomas Jefferson (you know, the founder of the Democratic Party). Moreover, read Thomas Paine (a man who, for his time, made Jefferson look like a Reaganite). They both would have been getting in a lot of faces if something similar to this scandal had happened in the 1790s. So, I must ask, why aren't you as angry as they would be?

But I'm sure Jefferson wouldn't agree to putting the country in danger when there hasn't been any evidence that a certain means of intelligence gathering has been used to endanger liberty and privacy....

Jefferson invented and used his own encryption method he called the "wheel cypher." It served its purpose for 147 years. So, it would seem that he might have been the Binney or Snowden of his generation. He knew a lot about the encryption methods of his era.

So, would Jefferson have lied or covered up official acts if they violated his conscience? Considering he was the man who wrote in July 1774 that "...the whole art of government consists in the art of being honest," and also wrote on March 9, 1821 that "...time produces also corruption of principles, and against this it is the duty of good citizens to be ever on the watch," it is clear that he believed that government must be honest while the citizenry must be watchful of that government.

Combining these facts and statements, Jefferson appeared to support moral government over the corrupt alternatives. When government fails in its attempted honesty, Jefferson doesn't suggest that he would cover up or lie about it.


Agreed. With this, and other issues like FATCA, the US government is in serious need of reform.


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NotThatClever13
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08 Mar 2017, 10:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
What we should always have known, now we have the evidence.


Has this been confirmed outside of Wikileaks?


Wikileaks has never published falsified information, Edward Snowden said that he believes it to be authentic.


here's a link to the times story if it helps you digest it

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/worl ... cking.html


But they certainly are particular about who and what they investigate and uncover, which shows they are definitely one sided.


Bias != false. I don't think they are biased either. They rely on others to leak them documents and they publish them. The people who provide them documents may have a bias in which documents they give them however. So unless they are hiding a trove of documents they didn't want to publish, it would be a hard assertion to prove.


Then why are they not exposing Putin's secrets? That guy literally has skeletons in his closet - - skeletons of all his critics and political enemies who have "died," or just disappeared. Why haven't they exposed whatever Putin is holding over Trump? I'm sure it constitutes more than Trump's fondness for water sports (and I don't mean jet skiing).


No one has given them any documents to release on the subject? They can't release what they don't have. Lots of stuff on Putin was released from the Mossack Fonseca hack about his offshore accounts though.



Kraichgauer
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08 Mar 2017, 11:29 pm

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
What we should always have known, now we have the evidence.


Has this been confirmed outside of Wikileaks?


Wikileaks has never published falsified information, Edward Snowden said that he believes it to be authentic.


here's a link to the times story if it helps you digest it

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/worl ... cking.html


But they certainly are particular about who and what they investigate and uncover, which shows they are definitely one sided.


Bias != false. I don't think they are biased either. They rely on others to leak them documents and they publish them. The people who provide them documents may have a bias in which documents they give them however. So unless they are hiding a trove of documents they didn't want to publish, it would be a hard assertion to prove.


Then why are they not exposing Putin's secrets? That guy literally has skeletons in his closet - - skeletons of all his critics and political enemies who have "died," or just disappeared. Why haven't they exposed whatever Putin is holding over Trump? I'm sure it constitutes more than Trump's fondness for water sports (and I don't mean jet skiing).


No one has given them any documents to release on the subject? They can't release what they don't have. Lots of stuff on Putin was released from the Mossack Fonseca hack about his offshore accounts though.


I suspect Wikileaks might just be ignoring anything that would reveal what a monster Putin is. I can't believe Wikileaks hasn't tried to gain possession of Trump's income tax returns, unless they have avoided getting them.


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NotThatClever13
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08 Mar 2017, 11:43 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
What we should always have known, now we have the evidence.


Has this been confirmed outside of Wikileaks?


Wikileaks has never published falsified information, Edward Snowden said that he believes it to be authentic.


here's a link to the times story if it helps you digest it

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/worl ... cking.html


But they certainly are particular about who and what they investigate and uncover, which shows they are definitely one sided.


Bias != false. I don't think they are biased either. They rely on others to leak them documents and they publish them. The people who provide them documents may have a bias in which documents they give them however. So unless they are hiding a trove of documents they didn't want to publish, it would be a hard assertion to prove.


Then why are they not exposing Putin's secrets? That guy literally has skeletons in his closet - - skeletons of all his critics and political enemies who have "died," or just disappeared. Why haven't they exposed whatever Putin is holding over Trump? I'm sure it constitutes more than Trump's fondness for water sports (and I don't mean jet skiing).


No one has given them any documents to release on the subject? They can't release what they don't have. Lots of stuff on Putin was released from the Mossack Fonseca hack about his offshore accounts though.


I suspect Wikileaks might just be ignoring anything that would reveal what a monster Putin is. I can't believe Wikileaks hasn't tried to gain possession of Trump's income tax returns, unless they have avoided getting them.


I suppose it depends on how much you trust Assange. He claims to release everything he is given, there has never been any solid evidence to dispute this to my knowledge. For this reason, I believe him on this point. I think what it comes down to is a lot of the best hackers who get this stuff are from Eastern Europe as well as Russia and like Putin. Or at least fear him enough that they wouldn't want to mess with him. He has a lot of power in Russia and shady connections.



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09 Mar 2017, 12:39 am

Jacoby wrote:
The proliferation of these tools make it impossible to say who is really behind any hacking, you cannot say definitively who is behind it with that information alone. I really do love Julian Assange since Wikileaks confirms so much of what I already knew to be true, it seems clear that the Obama administration greatly expanded cyber warfare capabilities and created an all encompassing surveillance state. I suspect they can basically can go back in time and recover information from almost any electronic communication, they're not actively spying on everyone since that's too many people to keep track of but they filter and capture everything so with the right information they can browse your history so to speak. They are keywords and phrases they have set aside for markers, certain websites, certain countries, etc that the look thru. With as much datamining and the almost complete complicity of the big tech companies with the government, they can make a database with profiles for millions of people. This is Big Brother as it gets!

This started under Bush, Sr. and grew in technological capacity under Clinton. You and I both knew about this stuff long ago. Don't try to hang noodles on my ears.


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Kraichgauer
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09 Mar 2017, 1:58 am

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
NotThatClever13 wrote:
What we should always have known, now we have the evidence.


Has this been confirmed outside of Wikileaks?


Wikileaks has never published falsified information, Edward Snowden said that he believes it to be authentic.


here's a link to the times story if it helps you digest it

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/07/worl ... cking.html


But they certainly are particular about who and what they investigate and uncover, which shows they are definitely one sided.


Bias != false. I don't think they are biased either. They rely on others to leak them documents and they publish them. The people who provide them documents may have a bias in which documents they give them however. So unless they are hiding a trove of documents they didn't want to publish, it would be a hard assertion to prove.


Then why are they not exposing Putin's secrets? That guy literally has skeletons in his closet - - skeletons of all his critics and political enemies who have "died," or just disappeared. Why haven't they exposed whatever Putin is holding over Trump? I'm sure it constitutes more than Trump's fondness for water sports (and I don't mean jet skiing).


No one has given them any documents to release on the subject? They can't release what they don't have. Lots of stuff on Putin was released from the Mossack Fonseca hack about his offshore accounts though.


I suspect Wikileaks might just be ignoring anything that would reveal what a monster Putin is. I can't believe Wikileaks hasn't tried to gain possession of Trump's income tax returns, unless they have avoided getting them.


I suppose it depends on how much you trust Assange. He claims to release everything he is given, there has never been any solid evidence to dispute this to my knowledge. For this reason, I believe him on this point. I think what it comes down to is a lot of the best hackers who get this stuff are from Eastern Europe as well as Russia and like Putin. Or at least fear him enough that they wouldn't want to mess with him. He has a lot of power in Russia and shady connections.


There's some thought that it goes deeper than that, as there have been accusations that Assange is actually on Putin's payroll. Hence, no Anti-Putin revelations.


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09 Mar 2017, 10:33 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
There's some thought that it goes deeper than that, as there have been accusations that Assange is actually on Putin's payroll. Hence, no Anti-Putin revelations.


While any number of things is possible in this crazy world, I like to see evidence before believing accusations. Ever since the release of the Podesta e-mails, the media has been on a campaign to discredit and muddy up Assange. Attempting to connect all these people to Russia, without any evidence, only damages the media's credibility.



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09 Mar 2017, 7:54 pm

NotThatClever13 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There's some thought that it goes deeper than that, as there have been accusations that Assange is actually on Putin's payroll. Hence, no Anti-Putin revelations.


While any number of things is possible in this crazy world, I like to see evidence before believing accusations. Ever since the release of the Podesta e-mails, the media has been on a campaign to discredit and muddy up Assange. Attempting to connect all these people to Russia, without any evidence, only damages the media's credibility.


Yet, Wikileaks shies away from any criticism of Putin. I think it's not a jump in logic to assume this is only due to lack of hacked information, when they have contacts with people who could easily do that.


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09 Mar 2017, 8:17 pm

It's pretty simple, whistleblowers who are afraid of the United States government are kind of forced to give their information to Wikileaks to get it published whereas someone with information about Trump wouldn't have to go thru those channels as they put totally unsubstantiated bullcrap about Trump on the front page of the New York Times all the time.



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09 Mar 2017, 8:23 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's pretty simple, whistleblowers who are afraid of the United States government are kind of forced to give their information to Wikileaks to get it published whereas someone with information about Trump wouldn't have to go thru those channels as they put totally unsubstantiated bullcrap about Trump on the front page of the New York Times all the time.


Why aren't whistleblowers doing the same in Russia? Could it be Wikileaks is choosey about who are their friends and enemies?


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