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Campin_Cat
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27 Aug 2017, 8:54 pm

AceofPens wrote:
Privately-owned establishments should be allowed to do whatever they like, in my mind. I also defend the rights of those who smoke marijuana, although I'm thoroughly disgusted with the habits of many who smoke it. People use their rights in ways I dislike all the time, but I still defend them because I think it's important. If it truly is a right, it belongs to them, so why should I feel entitled to take it away? What does the word "right" mean if we get to pick and choose which ones we like, anyway?

Yes, I agree with this post----especially the bolded/underlined parts.




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Campin_Cat
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27 Aug 2017, 9:10 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Would you defend a business's right to refuse service to black people? Or have "whites only" restrooms, etc.?

Before Trump was elected, I can hardly even imagine having this conversation with someone. Now we have people openly admitting that they approve of Jim Crow-style discrimination. It's a little disturbing, and has frightening implications for the future of our country.

Yes, I would defend a business' right to refuse service to black OR trans people----I wouldn't like it, but I would defend it.

Who's "we" and "our"? I thought you were British!!





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27 Aug 2017, 10:34 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
[color=#9932CC][b]Yes, I would defend a business' right to refuse service to black OR trans people----I wouldn't like it, but I would defend it.

And how would a business determine who is black or trans before deciding to not serve them? do they cast a discriminatory eye over the customer looking for "tell tale signs"? what if they were a chemist/pharmacy and the black or trans person needed first aid? do we go back to the "glorious days" when seriously injured or terminally ill blacks would die at the doorways of "whites only" hospitals



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27 Aug 2017, 10:37 pm

Today at a restaurant.

'oh my daughters not feeling well in there, you may want to use the mens room' because the womans daughter was probably going to be a while. Just more proof that a lot of people don't care so much about who uses what bathroom...doesn't even occur to them that a woman using the mens room because the womens is busy would even be considered weird.

So yeah still don't get why people are so up in arms about the idea of trans people using the bathroom for the sex they identify as.


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27 Aug 2017, 10:42 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
MushroomPrincess wrote:
Would you defend a business's right to refuse service to black people? Or have "whites only" restrooms, etc.?

Before Trump was elected, I can hardly even imagine having this conversation with someone. Now we have people openly admitting that they approve of Jim Crow-style discrimination. It's a little disturbing, and has frightening implications for the future of our country.

Yes, I would defend a business' right to refuse service to black OR trans people----I wouldn't like it, but I would defend it.

Who's "we" and "our"? I thought you were British!!

I wouldn't because that is not actually a right they have, and not one they should have either. I would not defend it, but on the off chance anti-discrimination rules for buisinesses were undone...then I would boycott said buisinesses and encourage other people to do so as well.


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27 Aug 2017, 10:43 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
So yeah still don't get why people are so up in arms about the idea of trans people using the bathroom for the sex they identify as.

Prejudiced people invent "reasons" to make their personal dislike look legitimate somehow. Like the freedom of speech crap...



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27 Aug 2017, 10:44 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
So yeah still don't get why people are so up in arms about the idea of trans people using the bathroom for the sex they identify as.

Prejudiced people invent "reasons" to make their personal dislike look legitimate somehow. Like the freedom of speech crap...


Oh yes the trump republican theory that freedom of speech covers anything from friendly conversation to hate speech and running protesters over. :roll:


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ASS-P
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27 Aug 2017, 11:05 pm

...A factual correction here - Blacks were in the U.S. military from the beginning IIRC, the main point was the end of official segregation
. Which happened by executive order under Harry Truman.
My father (I am white.) had some slight memories of how the seg system worked out on his WWII Navy ship.
Also, while I'm revising, I'll add that quite a few " respectable " Christian organizations quite explictly preached in favor of Jim Crow and seg in the pre- Civil Rights Movement years.
The story of Noah and his sons was pointed to as a justification, the narrative being that Noah's son Ham's sins meant that all of his descendants, at least all black persons, understood as descendants of Ham, were commanded by God to be under the command of other races. I do not get any sense of this as being stated, IIRC, in any Bible translation l've read. Kraich?
I might ask about the supposed Biblical disapproval of Jubal, father of all musicians, and his kin (All in Cain's descendants, which may be the supposed explanation :wink:.) for insufficient fervor, as well 8O!


hroomPrincess"]

AceofPens wrote:
so let's take the bathroom dispute. I consider it a messy situation because firstly you have the property rights of the owners of said bathrooms, and then you have the trans/black person's...right to service? But do people have a right to service? Why?

You realize you're using the exact same logic that was used to defend racist Jim Crow laws?

"It's my private property, I don't have to serve n****** if I don't want to!"

Discriminating against minorities, making them feel unwelcome in public spaces. Is that really a "right" you want to defend?

Kraichgauer wrote:
Erase the word "transgender," and write in "African American," then see how that looks.

Yeah, I was gonna say something similar. Being able to serve in the military was a major milestone for black civil rights, as well as gay and trans rights. There's a lot of parallels here.[/quote]


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ASPartOfMe
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28 Aug 2017, 1:59 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
So yeah still don't get why people are so up in arms about the idea of trans people using the bathroom for the sex they identify as.

Prejudiced people invent "reasons" to make their personal dislike look legitimate somehow. Like the freedom of speech crap...


Oh yes the trump republican theory that freedom of speech covers anything from friendly conversation to hate speech and running protesters over. :roll:


Free speech does not cover whatever the goverment says it should not cover. The arguments are about what should or should not be censored and by whom.

Of course friendly conversation should not be censored.

Hate speech is free speech in America as recently reaffirmed by the Supreme Court.
Supreme Court unanimously reaffirms: There is no ‘hate speech’ exception to the First Amendment
Quote:
From today’s opinion by Justice Samuel Alito (for four justices) in Matal v. Tam, the “Slants” case:

[The idea that the government may restrict] speech expressing ideas that offend … strikes at the heart of the First Amendment. Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.”

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote separately, also for four justices, but on this point the opinions agreed:

A law found to discriminate based on viewpoint is an “egregious form of content discrimination,” which is “presumptively unconstitutional.” … A law that can be directed against speech found offensive to some portion of the public can be turned against minority and dissenting views to the detriment of all. The First Amendment does not entrust that power to the government’s benevolence. Instead, our reliance must be on the substantial safeguards of free and open discussion in a democratic society.

And the justices made clear that speech that some view as racially offensive is protected not just against outright prohibition but also against lesser restrictions. In Matal, the government refused to register “The Slants” as a band’s trademark, on the ground that the name might be seen as demeaning to Asian Americans. The government wasn’t trying to forbid the band from using the mark; it was just denying it certain protections that trademarks get against unauthorized use by third parties. But even in this sort of program, the court held, viewpoint discrimination — including against allegedly racially offensive viewpoints — is unconstitutional. And this no-viewpoint-discrimination principle has long been seen as applying to exclusion of speakers from universities, denial of tax exemptions to nonprofits, and much more.


Running over protesters is censored by the goverment by making it a criminal offence as it should be.

What should be censored by private organizations is a matter of context.

There is a quickly becoming dated American saying
Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote:
I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it

Now people seem to be looking for reasons to censor things under the guise of hate speech. The term "hate speech" similer to a lot of "isms" is getting watered down and expanded so much these terms are losing thier negative power. The way things are going now even friendly conversations are being self censored for fear of perceived unpopular thought getting out on social media.

The censorship trend is bad because it hides or miniminizes the truth. If the Nazis were not allowed to march most Americans would have remained under the delusion that such thinking was a thing of the past, if they know about the past at all but that is the topic for another post.


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Chichikov
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28 Aug 2017, 7:34 am

MushroomPrincess wrote:
Nobody's trying to silence anybody.


How else would you call steering an argument in a direction that allows you to call people who don't agree with you "racist"?

MushroomPrincess wrote:
If you'd rather avoid the topic of race and racism, then that's your choice

The thread is nothing to do with racism so why is anyone discussing it at all? It's just been hijacked, no more no less.



Campin_Cat
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28 Aug 2017, 8:28 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The censorship trend is bad because it hides or miniminizes the truth. If the Nazis were not allowed to march most Americans would have remained under the delusion that such thinking was a thing of the past, if they know about the past at all but that is the topic for another post.

Good point!! It could be considered a silver lining, by some of the glass-half-full people.






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28 Aug 2017, 8:55 am

If a Trans person can fight as well as a non-Trans, and is otherwise a good soldier, why should this person be denied the right to fight for our country? We need good men (and women).

If a black person is denied service at a hospital, then dies because of that denial, the hospital should be found liable for his/her death.

If a person doesn't conduct his/her self well in a business establishment, the establishment has a right not to serve that person. I find it ridiculous that any person who conducts his/her self well in a store should be denied service for any reason. Moreover, it would be detrimental to the "bottom line" of the business.



Chichikov
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28 Aug 2017, 9:33 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
If a Trans person can fight as well as a non-Trans, and is otherwise a good soldier, why should this person be denied the right to fight for our country? We need good men (and women).

Why would a woman be a good soldier just because she identifies as a man? The things that make men good soldiers are biological.



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28 Aug 2017, 9:53 am

Trust me....I've known plenty of women who would be good soldiers. It takes smarts as well as brute strength---and some women do have the brute strength combined with the smarts.

Part of being a good soldier is the ability to "MacGyver" (fix things with minimal materials available at a moment's notice). I've known women who have a facility for that.

I would not have made a good soldier---but I don't care. I have other strengths.



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28 Aug 2017, 10:06 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Trust me....I've known plenty of women who would be good soldiers. It takes smarts as well as brute strength---and some women do have the brute strength combined with the smarts.

Part of being a good soldier is the ability to "MacGyver" (fix things with minimal materials available at a moment's notice). I've known women who have a facility for that.

I would not have made a good soldier---but I don't care. I have other strengths.

That might wash outside of the military, but soldiers are relentlessly trained, put a man and a woman on the same training course and the man will reach a level the woman can't down to basic biology. Words and definitions aren't going to change that. It's not just physical strength, as I mentioned it's aggression and other factors too. Proof by example fallacies are going to be little comfort when your team mate can't drag you off the battle field because they lack the strength.



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28 Aug 2017, 10:16 am

But do you always want to be your team mate to be as aggressive as you are?

Diversity can be a good way of making your team more unpredictable, and less likely to fall prey to dirty tricks employed by the enemy. We can't expect our enemies to "play fair."