“Free Speech” double standards

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Raptor
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26 Sep 2017, 11:55 pm

SH90 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Yeah that is the point of a protest, speaking out in spite of 'expected conduct' also no company has the right to tell you to stand for the national anthem, our soldiers have died just as much for the right to stand for it as they have for the right to sit during it.

If I am paying my employees to attend a event, while representing my company (with clients who are mostly military/police). I have every right to fire or punish them if their actions are harmful to the companies image. More so if those actions would anger my customer base if I did nothing... Besides, I have very strict contract and policy that I enforce.

The First Amendment, only prevents government restrictions on speech. Not restrictions imposed by private individuals or businesses.

They can't (or won't) see that.
They also equate supporting free speech to supporting the content of the speech itself.

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Sweetleaf
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27 Sep 2017, 12:12 am

SH90 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well then it would seem its up to the NFL management if they should be fired or not, and so far I get the impression that no such action is being planned. I guess Trump could just buy the NFL and impose his own rules.

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SH90
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27 Sep 2017, 12:26 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Their decision, but I bet we will still continue to see a drop in ratings and then the sponsors will notice (beyond all the complaints). I doubt the NFL will ever go away, only revenue would drop if ratings decline or sponsors feel the pressure. Instead of these oppressed players making a shedload of money, they would only make a shedload.

ASPartOfMe
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27 Sep 2017, 12:36 am

jrjones9933 wrote:

Or, their actions reflect a growing consensus in this country that the era of oppressive policing and overimprisonment must end now.

I think it is mostly team spirit motivantion in the face of an attack by an outsider. I have a hard time believing between last Sunday and this Sunday all the players and owners discovered there was a national emergency of overpolicing.

I am not sure about the growing consensus. Because it is a big public issue and many celebrities are speaking out it has created a perception of public opinion moving and inventability. That does not necessarily mean public opinion has actually moved.

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ASPartOfMe
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27 Sep 2017, 12:39 am

SH90 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

I am not sure these protests or even CTE’s are the reasons for the ratings drop. I believe it is a combination of the natural fall of an insitution that has been on top for a very long time and more options these days.

cyberdad
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27 Sep 2017, 2:27 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

ok to specify they have nothing to be greatful to white americans for....like the way its been framed, that they should be greatful to 'white america' for giving them the freedom to play football or whatever. Forgivness for what was done is one thing but suggesting they are being ungreatful for protesting discriminatory treatment is freaking ridiculous.

It amuses me that right wingers whinge about how much money black NFL players and black boxers get as if that justifies them standing for the national anthem. There is a reason these sports get paid so much as retired NFL players and boxers get their brains beaten to crap. Essentially the pay is danger money.

The all white crowds want to watch these black guys get concussion and brain damage for their entertainment much like the Romans used to watch slaves kill each other in the arena for blood sport.

Sweetleaf
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27 Sep 2017, 2:32 am

SH90 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

That's just fine, but I wonder what so many americans would think of firing employees just for kneeling for the anthem. Meh If the NFL wants to fire them they can, but so far doesn't seem like they want to.

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cyberdad
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27 Sep 2017, 5:20 am

An all white youth team have honoured Colin Kaepernick by not kneeling during the national anthem (much to the anger of their parents) to protest social injustice
http://nypost.com/2017/09/19/youth-foot ... e-protest/

The coach said “What I teach my kids is love, integrity, honesty, fairness, respect and boundaries,” he said. and I’m covered under the First Amendment to peacefully protest and assemble.”

kitesandtrainsandcats
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27 Sep 2017, 8:18 am

cyberdad wrote:

There is a reason these sports get paid so much as retired NFL players and boxers get their brains beaten to crap. Essentially the pay is danger money.

That concept makes sense.

Quote:

The all white crowds want to watch these black guys get concussion and brain damage for their entertainment much like the Romans used to watch slaves kill each other in the arena for blood sport.

I don't know that is literally true as 'all' white. With blacks, African Americans, whichever word one wants to use, being only twelve to thirteen to fourteen percent of the overall US population depending on year and source, a stadium crowd of say twenty-thousand or more is pretty much going to look all white whether it is or not.

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Aristophanes
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27 Sep 2017, 9:51 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

SH90 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

It's true, the ratings have been down for 2 years, 3 games, it predates the anthem stance by a year, and the league was stagnant for 2 years before that. CTE and the anthem stance are having an effect, but the NFL has also jumped the shark as an institution. With all the excessive celebration, media coverage, and political intrigue coming from the league office, the game is more pure entertainment than sport anymore.

Edit: perhaps that's the common tie that binds us these days-- we're all kind of 'meh' on football, for whatever reasons.

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27 Sep 2017, 10:11 am

There is no national database of police shootings, but the statistics that are available suggest that police today use deadly force significantly less often than in the past. In NYC, home to America’s largest police force, officer-involved shootings have fallen by more than 90% since the early 1970s, and national trends have been similarly dramatic.

So the larger question is whether what is being protested has some basis in reality beyond anecdotes and viral videos on social media. An increase in press coverage of police shootings isn’t the same thing as an increase in police shootings.

Every one of us has things they would change about the country. But we put that aside for three minutes and come together as one. These guys are saying, 'but my complaint is more important than your complaint.' No. It's not. For those three minutes we have no complaints, only love of country and gratitude to veterans. Somehow the league has decided that players don't work for the fans anymore. Fans turn to speak.

kitesandtrainsandcats
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27 Sep 2017, 10:39 am

Shrapnel wrote:

There is no national database of police shootings,

I did find this to support that,

Quote:

But if you want to know how many times a police officer has killed someone in the line of duty, you're out of luck.
"It's really ridiculous we don't have that count," said David Klinger, an associate criminology professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. "For whatever reason, the powers that be that collect data for the feds ... decided that how often police kill people doesn't matter."
Despite that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 required the government to keep "data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers," no such database exists. A study published 14 years ago sought to nail down numbers, but its author conceded to CNN that only 564 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement entities participated.
The closest thing to a statistic is the FBI's assertion that police were responsible for about 400 "justifiable homicides" annually between 2008 and 2012.
Even if there were an accurate count, Klinger said, we'd still be "missing a huge part of the picture when it comes to deadly force." Cops tend to shoot to kill -- and gunfire is the predominant means by which police kill suspects -- so more illuminating would be knowing how many times police opened fire, period, he said.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/police-brutality-video-social-media-attitudes/index.html

The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 is a link on page, it goes here,
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-103hr3355enr/pdf/BILLS-103hr3355enr.pdf

Article says other things, and this at end,

Quote:

Bogle, The Tribune CEO, agreed, saying, "Just like there are some bad police, there are bad people out there, no doubt, that need to be taken off our streets."

He'd like to see people participating more in surveillance and crime prevention in their neighborhoods, while police should receive more training and return to a community-oriented model, he said.
"There needs to be training because we're not going to end how people feel about each other," he said. "We need a good, strong police force, but we don't need them adding to the problem because they don't understand who is living in these communities."

Yet no matter how much people participate and how many policing reforms are enacted, the American public is fickle and "law enforcement, by nature, is contentious, not just in the black community," Klinger said.
Just as support for the death penalty spikes during periods of high crime in the country, that support drops when crime is down, Klinger said. He suspects police use of force follows a similar pattern.

"Everybody loved the cops on September 12," he said.

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kitesandtrainsandcats
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27 Sep 2017, 10:43 am

Shrapnel wrote:

There is no national database of police shootings, but the statistics that are available suggest that police today use deadly force significantly less often than in the past.

While talking about related data,

Quote:

ALISON STEWART: Two factors in this data that are worth discussion — mental illness and domestic disturbances. What do the data tell you?

KIMBRIELL KELLY The data tells us that those two things you talked about are some of the key indicators or key things that the buckets in which people who are killed by police fall into. And so, one in four of those cases are people who were in some sort of mental — had mental illness or were in some sort of mental illness crisis. And the second bucket has not been reported a lot, but it’s the same as it was roughly last year, which is domestic disturbances make up about one in six of those fatalities.

ALISON STEWART: A small percentage of the people who were shot and killed by police were unarmed, just 5 percent. Most had guns or knives. So, what does this tell us about lethal force and what police face?

KIMBRIELL KELLY: There are some disparities, particularly when you look at unarmed. And the unarmed percentage has gone down. So, last year was about 9 percent and this year is about 5 percent. But what it tells us, at least what the experts tell us, is that this is a universe of people who, with different training, through de-escalation, if officers are able to slow down the process, that these are lives that might be saved.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/number-people-killed-police-dropped-slightly-2016/

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Misslizard
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27 Sep 2017, 1:44 pm

Two vet groups have come out in support for players who choose to kneel.
Vote Vets and CommonDefense.

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SH90
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27 Sep 2017, 4:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

A wise business owner should try not to alienate their customer base. They should know their customers, what they want and expect (If not, they are probably not successful). If you run a coffee shop with hipster employees and customers, you would support employees not standing and the customers would most likely have your back... My customers wouldn't and I would receive complaints. My clients are wealthy, mostly business owners or executives. I don't sale direct to the public. If anything, the "negative" press (if any, I am small they wouldn't care) could be twisted into advertisement toward my customer base with a well crafted public statement.

Last edited by SH90 on 27 Sep 2017, 6:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jrjones9933
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27 Sep 2017, 4:27 pm

A wise business owner also takes the employees' opinions into account.

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