04 Apr 2018, 7:48 am
kokopelli wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Nobody wins by being an idiot and parroting a bunch of nonsense from the newspapers.
psychological projection
Quote:
If you want to see what Global Warming will do, look at history to see the truth.
Are you just going to keep vaguely mentioning history, or are you going to cite some sources?
Are you referring to the Medieval Warm Period? There was a huge famine in North America during the Medieval Warm Period. Thousands of Native Americans died.
https://sites.google.com/site/medievalwarmperiod/Home/drought-floods-famine-and-central-and-south-america
"These droughts often lasted for a decade or longer and have been dubbed meagadroughts. Two droughts, in California and Patagonia, each lasted for well over 100 years and have been described as epic droughts."
Even your own source doesn't agree with your conclusions:
Quote:
It looks as if the great droughts and floods in the Americas of this period would have still occurred even if there had been no Medieval Solar Maximum (approx. 1100-1250 AD); and temperature (other than changes to sea temperatures) doesn't appear to be the defining feature in producing these droughts and floods.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Quote:
If you aren't interested in the truth, then just keep parroting the nonsense from the newspapers.
Are you trying to turn this into a smugness contest?Just give up man. You suck at this. You're just embarrassing yourself.
It looks like you just embarrassed yourself enormously.
By the way, the Anasazi people left their famous dwellings to go elsewhere around 1300, thought to be because of drought. That happens to coincide with the early part of the onset of the cooling known as the "Little Ice Age".
I live 30 miles from Mesa Verde, the largest and most celebrated of Anasazi heritage sites. We’ve been going through a drought since 1991. It’s a feature of the natural landscape here where mountain meets high desert. It’s a few feasts to a whole lot of famine and it’s actually due to natural topography and not weather systems. If the storms come from the west or southwest they deposit huge amounts of moisture on the La Plata mountains filling the Dolores river and the few underground aquifers we have, and thus there’s no drought. If the storms come from the northwest they cut behind Shark’s Tooth (a northern peak on the La Platas) thus bypassing the La Platas and dropping the moisture in the Uncompahgre to the north east which drains to the southeast and away from our river and aquifers. Problem is 2/3rds of the storms come from the northwest, and thus this region is always in peril of drought, no matter the global temperature.
As for the Anasazi, in 2008 they did genetic testing on ancient corn kernels found in hovenweep and found no relation to domesticated corn used by thier contemporaries, thus they could have been growing a crop prone to disease, uneven growth, or a combination of the two— meaning doomed to fail at some point. Also, another theory is war with southern tribes which archeological evidence suggests were more advanced in warfare (better weapons at least, and a bigger population meaning more soldiers). Truth be told, it’s a giant mystery as to why they disappeared, and drought is just one of the theories— should also be noted that theory came about at the start of our current drought so it was “en Vogue” in the area when it was proposed.
kokopelli
Veteran
Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,406
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind
04 Apr 2018, 6:04 pm
Aristophanes wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Nobody wins by being an idiot and parroting a bunch of nonsense from the newspapers.
psychological projection
Quote:
If you want to see what Global Warming will do, look at history to see the truth.
Are you just going to keep vaguely mentioning history, or are you going to cite some sources?
Are you referring to the Medieval Warm Period? There was a huge famine in North America during the Medieval Warm Period. Thousands of Native Americans died.
https://sites.google.com/site/medievalwarmperiod/Home/drought-floods-famine-and-central-and-south-america
"These droughts often lasted for a decade or longer and have been dubbed meagadroughts. Two droughts, in California and Patagonia, each lasted for well over 100 years and have been described as epic droughts."
Even your own source doesn't agree with your conclusions:
Quote:
It looks as if the great droughts and floods in the Americas of this period would have still occurred even if there had been no Medieval Solar Maximum (approx. 1100-1250 AD); and temperature (other than changes to sea temperatures) doesn't appear to be the defining feature in producing these droughts and floods.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Quote:
If you aren't interested in the truth, then just keep parroting the nonsense from the newspapers.
Are you trying to turn this into a smugness contest?Just give up man. You suck at this. You're just embarrassing yourself.
It looks like you just embarrassed yourself enormously.
By the way, the Anasazi people left their famous dwellings to go elsewhere around 1300, thought to be because of drought. That happens to coincide with the early part of the onset of the cooling known as the "Little Ice Age".
I live 30 miles from Mesa Verde, the largest and most celebrated of Anasazi heritage sites. We’ve been going through a drought since 1991. It’s a feature of the natural landscape here where mountain meets high desert. It’s a few feasts to a whole lot of famine and it’s actually due to natural topography and not weather systems. If the storms come from the west or southwest they deposit huge amounts of moisture on the La Plata mountains filling the Dolores river and the few underground aquifers we have, and thus there’s no drought. If the storms come from the northwest they cut behind Shark’s Tooth (a northern peak on the La Platas) thus bypassing the La Platas and dropping the moisture in the Uncompahgre to the north east which drains to the southeast and away from our river and aquifers. Problem is 2/3rds of the storms come from the northwest, and thus this region is always in peril of drought, no matter the global temperature.
As for the Anasazi, in 2008 they did genetic testing on ancient corn kernels found in hovenweep and found no relation to domesticated corn used by thier contemporaries, thus they could have been growing a crop prone to disease, uneven growth, or a combination of the two— meaning doomed to fail at some point. Also, another theory is war with southern tribes which archeological evidence suggests were more advanced in warfare (better weapons at least, and a bigger population meaning more soldiers). Truth be told, it’s a giant mystery as to why they disappeared, and drought is just one of the theories— should also be noted that theory came about at the start of our current drought so it was “en Vogue” in the area when it was proposed.
You're right -- there were probably multiple causes contributing to the collapse of their civilization, not just one. In a civilization highly stressed by other issues, drought can certainly make things much worse.
04 Apr 2018, 9:19 pm
kokopelli wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
Nobody wins by being an idiot and parroting a bunch of nonsense from the newspapers.
psychological projection
Quote:
If you want to see what Global Warming will do, look at history to see the truth.
Are you just going to keep vaguely mentioning history, or are you going to cite some sources?
Are you referring to the Medieval Warm Period? There was a huge famine in North America during the Medieval Warm Period. Thousands of Native Americans died.
https://sites.google.com/site/medievalwarmperiod/Home/drought-floods-famine-and-central-and-south-america
"These droughts often lasted for a decade or longer and have been dubbed meagadroughts. Two droughts, in California and Patagonia, each lasted for well over 100 years and have been described as epic droughts."
Even your own source doesn't agree with your conclusions:
Quote:
It looks as if the great droughts and floods in the Americas of this period would have still occurred even if there had been no Medieval Solar Maximum (approx. 1100-1250 AD); and temperature (other than changes to sea temperatures) doesn't appear to be the defining feature in producing these droughts and floods.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
NB: Causes of drought. (1) One of the driest deserts in the world is in Antarctica. Another is the Atacama Desert on Chile's Pacific coast. In neither case is extreme warmth the cause of their aridity. It is a mistake to automatically associate increased incidence of drought with an increase in warmth. (2) The Classic Period Maya droughts, for example, appear to have occurred during a period of cooler, dry conditions produced by a shift in the position of the North Atlantic High. (R.B. Gill. The Great Maya Droughts. Water, Life, and Death. UNMP. 2000. See Chpt. 6 for explanation.) Archaeologists investigating the collapse of the Maya (9th/10th C) and Tula (12th C) believe these occurred during periods of cold, drought and famine; these appear connected in Mexico.
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Quote:
If you aren't interested in the truth, then just keep parroting the nonsense from the newspapers.
Are you trying to turn this into a smugness contest?Just give up man. You suck at this. You're just embarrassing yourself.
It looks like you just embarrassed yourself enormously.
By the way, the Anasazi people left their famous dwellings to go elsewhere around 1300, thought to be because of drought. That happens to coincide with the early part of the onset of the cooling known as the "Little Ice Age".
I live 30 miles from Mesa Verde, the largest and most celebrated of Anasazi heritage sites. We’ve been going through a drought since 1991. It’s a feature of the natural landscape here where mountain meets high desert. It’s a few feasts to a whole lot of famine and it’s actually due to natural topography and not weather systems. If the storms come from the west or southwest they deposit huge amounts of moisture on the La Plata mountains filling the Dolores river and the few underground aquifers we have, and thus there’s no drought. If the storms come from the northwest they cut behind Shark’s Tooth (a northern peak on the La Platas) thus bypassing the La Platas and dropping the moisture in the Uncompahgre to the north east which drains to the southeast and away from our river and aquifers. Problem is 2/3rds of the storms come from the northwest, and thus this region is always in peril of drought, no matter the global temperature.
As for the Anasazi, in 2008 they did genetic testing on ancient corn kernels found in hovenweep and found no relation to domesticated corn used by thier contemporaries, thus they could have been growing a crop prone to disease, uneven growth, or a combination of the two— meaning doomed to fail at some point. Also, another theory is war with southern tribes which archeological evidence suggests were more advanced in warfare (better weapons at least, and a bigger population meaning more soldiers). Truth be told, it’s a giant mystery as to why they disappeared, and drought is just one of the theories— should also be noted that theory came about at the start of our current drought so it was “en Vogue” in the area when it was proposed.
You're right -- there were probably multiple causes contributing to the collapse of their civilization, not just one. In a civilization highly stressed by other issues, drought can certainly make things much worse.
For the record I don’t discount the drought theory, it’s a perpetual problem here. But I’m not willing to go all eggs in the basket on it. We have a lot of drought, why would one force them to leave after 400 years, since they’d adapted to it for 400 years? It’s probably multiple reasons why they disappeared, drought included. For the record I’m 37, lived here my entire life, and we have been in drought conditions since I was 10. This winter had the least amount of snowfall i’ve ever experienced, 4 minor storms, all after New Years for a combined total of 4 inches...we average 50 a year. Meanwhile the east coast got s**t hammered like never before. That’s why I say with something as complex as the weather it’s best to look at long term datasets, one season is just that, and it could be an anomaly.
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