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Kraichgauer
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08 Oct 2019, 4:11 am

beneficii wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Turks speak a Turko-Mongol language and the Kurds speak an Indo-Iranian language and the Syrians speak Arabic. Ethnically however they are genetically related (although the Kurds and the Yazidi are proud of their relatively fair complexions).


FYI, there is no confirmed Turco-Mongolic language family, so it would be more accurate to simply say that the Turks speak a Turkic language, which is the broadest accepted language family they're part of. And indeed, the Kurds speak an Indo-European language in the Indo-Iranian branch.


Not meaning to derail the thread, but one of my professors from my college days who could speak fluid Turkish said he could communicate well enough with people in Turkmenistan, implying that there was a common origin for both nations.


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08 Oct 2019, 4:12 am

cyberdad wrote:
Normally don't disagree with your posts but Turkish language is part of the Uralic family of languages which includes languages as disparate as Mongolian/Japanese in the east and Hungarian, Estonian and Finnish in the west. A subgroup are the Altaic languages which specifically include Turkish and Mongolian. The latter is what I was referring to Turko-Mongol language group.


You're thinking Ural-Altaic, which is proposed but not accepted. The Uralic languages do not include Turkish:

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 935345-e-6

Altaic is also proposed but not accepted:

https://www.languagesoftheworld.info/la ... versy.html

Of course, the Turkic and Mongolic languages were in all likelihood part of a Sprachbund.

I agree with what you say about genetics. It's one of the most fascinating periods of history for me, how a people ended up getting their language changed like that.


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Last edited by beneficii on 08 Oct 2019, 4:49 am, edited 3 times in total.

beneficii
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08 Oct 2019, 4:12 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
beneficii wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Turks speak a Turko-Mongol language and the Kurds speak an Indo-Iranian language and the Syrians speak Arabic. Ethnically however they are genetically related (although the Kurds and the Yazidi are proud of their relatively fair complexions).


FYI, there is no confirmed Turco-Mongolic language family, so it would be more accurate to simply say that the Turks speak a Turkic language, which is the broadest accepted language family they're part of. And indeed, the Kurds speak an Indo-European language in the Indo-Iranian branch.


Not meaning to derail the thread, but one of my professors from my college days who could speak fluid Turkish said he could communicate well enough with people in Turkmenistan, implying that there was a common origin for both nations.


Indeed, they are both part of the Oghuz Turkic branch.


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08 Oct 2019, 4:15 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
The Kurds are a discrete ethnic group separate from their neighbours, if that's what you're asking.


But aren't their neighbors also seperate from each other in the same way? It seems to me so far that they are fighting to get a chuck of all four countries to make into their own. And that is the problem. If they were in the middle of one country and they had their own separate religion, language and were genetically different that would be one thing, but none of that seems to be the case.



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08 Oct 2019, 4:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Turks speak a Turko-Mongol language and the Kurds speak an Indo-Iranian language and the Syrians speak Arabic. Ethnically however they are genetically related (although the Kurds and the Yazidi are proud of their relatively fair complexions).


Not sure I understand. It seems like it is being said that Turkey, Syria, Iran and Armenia are united against the Kurds ethnicity wise even though they each speak different languages from each other, which is supposed to be the basis on which ethnicity is being determined.


The Kurds were cheated out of their traditional ethnic homeland when the British and French drew up maps placating powerful Turkish and Syrian interests. The kurds have been agitating for a homeland which directly threatens the borders of Turkey and Syria. The Iranians and Armenians are sympathetic to the Kurds but are wary of their territorial ambitions and their tendency to form terrorist organisations like the PKK which were ironically banned by the US government for their attacks on Turkish civilians.


From what I read after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1920 they were promised their own piece of the pie according to a treaty. But then that treaty was replaced by another. So far this sounds like a territory issue.

What would be the outcome if the Kurds renounced their desire to have their own country?



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08 Oct 2019, 4:29 am

EzraS wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
The Kurds are a discrete ethnic group separate from their neighbours, if that's what you're asking.


But aren't their neighbors also seperate from each other in the same way? It seems to me so far that they are fighting to get a chuck of all four countries to make into their own. And that is the problem. If they were in the middle of one country and they had their own separate religion, language and were genetically different that would be one thing, but none of that seems to be the case.


Image

In part, yes. Then again, their neighbours all actually have nation states, so I guess they have common interests in the Kurds not getting one. Like CD said, the Kurds got screwed back in the 1920's when the borders were being drawn up by the colonial powers. Aside from the various ethnic cleansing attempts, the Turks have also been engaging in cultural erasure; outlawing the Kurdish language and insisting they arent "Kurds" they're "mountain-turks".


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08 Oct 2019, 4:49 am

beneficii wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Normally don't disagree with your posts but Turkish language is part of the Uralic family of languages which includes languages as disparate as Mongolian/Japanese in the east and Hungarian, Estonian and Finnish in the west. A subgroup are the Altaic languages which specifically include Turkish and Mongolian. The latter is what I was referring to Turko-Mongol language group.


You're thinking Ural-Altaic, which is proposed but not accepted. The Uralic languages do not included Turkish:

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 935345-e-6

Altaic is also proposed but not accepted:

https://www.languagesoftheworld.info/la ... versy.html

Of course, the Turkic and Mongolic languages were in all likelihood part of a Sprachbund.

I agree with what you say about genetics. It's one of the most fascinating periods of history for me, how a people ended up getting their language changed like that.


Regarding how languages can attach themselves to differing ethnic groups reminds me of the southern region of Germanic Europe. While in Austria, much of Switzerland, and the southern part of Germany (south Baden-Wurttemberg and southern Bavaria), the language is clearly German, but DNA investigations have found that the population there is more Celtic than anything else. Doubtlessly due to a Germanic minority taking over these areas after the fall of Rome, who then imposed their language and identity on the Romanized Celts. Very possibly, Celts who remained outside of the Roman Empire, no longer having a continent of ethically and linguistically continuum of related tribes to share their identity with, had ultimately gravitated toward their Germanic and Slavic neighbors, and adopted their identities and languages.


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08 Oct 2019, 5:06 am

beneficii wrote:
I agree with what you say about genetics. It's one of the most fascinating periods of history for me, how a people ended up getting their language changed like that.


The origin of the Kurds is quite controversial. Prior to islamisation it's suspected they were culturally like the Yazidis who still follow an ancient form of Zoroastrianism (pre-islamic religion of Persia). Both Yazidi and Kurdish is a form of Iranian language but their communities are fiercely independent and don't actually identify ethnically with Iranians.

My suspicion is they are the indigenous population of the Zagros mountains and possibly remnants of pre-historic tribal groups.



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08 Oct 2019, 5:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Regarding how languages can attach themselves to differing ethnic groups reminds me of the southern region of Germanic Europe. While in Austria, much of Switzerland, and the southern part of Germany (south Baden-Wurttemberg and southern Bavaria), the language is clearly German, but DNA investigations have found that the population there is more Celtic than anything else. Doubtlessly due to a Germanic minority taking over these areas after the fall of Rome, who then imposed their language and identity on the Romanized Celts. Very possibly, Celts who remained outside of the Roman Empire, no longer having a continent of ethically and linguistically continuum of related tribes to share their identity with, had ultimately gravitated toward their Germanic and Slavic neighbors, and adopted their identities and languages.


The Franks Germanised quite a number of tribes under Charlemagne.



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08 Oct 2019, 5:17 am

cyberdad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Regarding how languages can attach themselves to differing ethnic groups reminds me of the southern region of Germanic Europe. While in Austria, much of Switzerland, and the southern part of Germany (south Baden-Wurttemberg and southern Bavaria), the language is clearly German, but DNA investigations have found that the population there is more Celtic than anything else. Doubtlessly due to a Germanic minority taking over these areas after the fall of Rome, who then imposed their language and identity on the Romanized Celts. Very possibly, Celts who remained outside of the Roman Empire, no longer having a continent of ethically and linguistically continuum of related tribes to share their identity with, had ultimately gravitated toward their Germanic and Slavic neighbors, and adopted their identities and languages.


The Franks Germanised quite a number of tribes under Charlemagne.


The Franks themselves were probably of Celto-Germanic admixture themselves, dating back to their ancestors being part of a prehistoric Celtic/Germanic contact zone called the Nordwestblock, where people exchanged not only words, weapons, and material culture, but also genetic material.


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08 Oct 2019, 12:32 pm

Quite incredible that we have people whining about nationalism while crowing for an ethno state.

There's a massive elephant in the room which no imperialist cares about... SYRIANS. It is the US and others that have set their country on fire to try to enforce an ethno state to weaken Syria. The Kurdish army are not helpless children which maternalistic racists seem to suggest, they are an army that has tried to terrorise its way into a state. Murdering and raping Christians on its way. Turkey is more of an important and valuable ally than the Kurds. They need to integrate or face the consequences. Given that Israel supports a Kurdish state and got 77% of its oil from the Kurdish held region in Iraq before Iraq took back its land, the Kurdish state could be within Israel.


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08 Oct 2019, 12:35 pm

Trump was elected on pulling out of Syria, explaining that the US has spent trillions in the Middle East and won nothing. It hurts the US being in the Middle East, and screw the arms industry. The US has a mess to clear up in its own country, with crime, healthcare and homeless issues. Good on Trump.


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08 Oct 2019, 12:51 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Quite incredible that we have people whining about nationalism while crowing for an ethno state.

There's a massive elephant in the room which no imperialist cares about... SYRIANS. It is the US and others that have set their country on fire to try to enforce an ethno state to weaken Syria. The Kurdish army are not helpless children which maternalistic racists seem to suggest, they are an army that has tried to terrorise its way into a state. Murdering and raping Christians on its way. Turkey is more of an important and valuable ally than the Kurds. They need to integrate or face the consequences. Given that Israel supports a Kurdish state and got 77% of its oil from the Kurdish held region in Iraq before Iraq took back its land, the Kurdish state could be within Israel.


I had a feeling it was something more like that.



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08 Oct 2019, 2:46 pm

Trump just said on facebook that we will help the Kurds with weapons.


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08 Oct 2019, 3:00 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Quite incredible that we have people whining about nationalism while crowing for an ethno state.

There's a massive elephant in the room which no imperialist cares about... SYRIANS. It is the US and others that have set their country on fire to try to enforce an ethno state to weaken Syria. The Kurdish army are not helpless children which maternalistic racists seem to suggest, they are an army that has tried to terrorise its way into a state. Murdering and raping Christians on its way. Turkey is more of an important and valuable ally than the Kurds. They need to integrate or face the consequences. Given that Israel supports a Kurdish state and got 77% of its oil from the Kurdish held region in Iraq before Iraq took back its land, the Kurdish state could be within Israel.


As a matter of fact, the Kurds and the situation they're in have more in common with the Palestinians than anyone else. But because you are so Anti-Israel, you refuse to acknowledge that fact.
Why can't the Palestinians just integrate rather than agitate for their own ethno-state? What makes them so different from the Kurds? You seem to have a double standard on this issue.
I see you forgot to mention that it was the Kurds who had put their lives on the line defeating ISIS.


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08 Oct 2019, 3:01 pm

EzraS wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Quite incredible that we have people whining about nationalism while crowing for an ethno state.

There's a massive elephant in the room which no imperialist cares about... SYRIANS. It is the US and others that have set their country on fire to try to enforce an ethno state to weaken Syria. The Kurdish army are not helpless children which maternalistic racists seem to suggest, they are an army that has tried to terrorise its way into a state. Murdering and raping Christians on its way. Turkey is more of an important and valuable ally than the Kurds. They need to integrate or face the consequences. Given that Israel supports a Kurdish state and got 77% of its oil from the Kurdish held region in Iraq before Iraq took back its land, the Kurdish state could be within Israel.


I had a feeling it was something more like that.


No, it's not.


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