Will Trump be pulling a Richard Nixon on us?

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beneficii
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18 Nov 2019, 1:34 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
beneficii wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The opposite will happen. If he loses the election he will claim the election was rigged and he will refuse to leave and will have to be taken out of the White House by force.


The first non-peaceful transfer of power in this country’s history. That would be a damn shame.

That would be an actual coup.

Problem is nobody really knows how to legally do this, the constitution says nothing on this matter. Who would enforce the law?

That is why Trump not only has to lose the election but lose it decisively. In that situation claims of a rigged election would have less validity, the military or whomever would be more likely to enforce the law, Trump supporters more likely to be dissuaded from disruption or worse.

A conviction by the Senate would mean his popular support has cratered to such a degree that successful enforcement of the law would be more likely.


If Trump loses, no matter by how much as long as Congress certifies that he lost, and he stays in office anyway, that would be a coup and he would become a tyrant.

It would justify the use of political violence and the launching of a revolution, since that would mean we no longer have free and fair elections and the rule of law has collapsed. The Founders always supported the use of force against tyrants.


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beneficii
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18 Nov 2019, 5:29 pm

This says that if Trump refuses to vacate the White House after losing in 2020, he would only have the White House in his position and not necessarily any control over the government. The arms of the US government, the federal agencies and the military may consider him to no longer be President and refuse any orders from him, instead taking orders from his successor. Any order he issues may be challenged in court as illegitimate, and the states may refuse to recognize his actions.

Quote:
Joshua Sandman, a professor of political science at the University of New Haven, says he does not think Mr Trump would ever refuse to leave office after an election because it would destroy the president’s legacy.

Still, he suggests – like other experts quoted here – intense congressional and political pressure would force Mr Trump out of office quickly.

“The first line of defence would be the congress, and his party pressuring him out, telling him he must resign or leave,” Mr Sandman says. “If he wants to stay in the White House, he would stay in the White House. But, again, hypothetically you don’t need that. The White House is symbolic. It’s not a seat of power, necessarily.”

He adds: “All of these are, it’s sort of a work of science fiction. It’s all hypothetical.”


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 14991.html

This is a pretty informative article, and there are a lot of issues if Trump tries to stay in power. Even his base may abandon him if he tries that, but if the election is close that could be an issue and a Constitutional crisis.

To me, what Congress certifies would be what's correct, as the Constitution gives Congress the job of counting the electoral votes (12th Amendment):

Quote:
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;

The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;



Another thing that would help the legitimacy of the count in the eyes of voters is the fact that Mike Pence is Vice President, and thus also President of the Senate, he will be the one counting the votes in front of Congress.


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beneficii
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18 Nov 2019, 6:10 pm

Also, anyone appointed by Trump in such an event, would not be legitimate either. So any decisions they make may be challenged in court, and where the decisions they make affect what the states can do, any of the states may ignore them. Vetoes by Trump would not be recognized; if Congress recognizes someone else as President, then they would look for vetoes from that person. Heck, they wouldn't even send the bills to Trump to sign.

So, it looks like that there are mechanisms to deal with a recalcitrant Trump. The only issue that could come up is if any of the agencies or the military sides with Trump, but I find that unlikely. The military's leadership is not particularly happy with Trump, and they have all sworn or affirmed to uphold the laws and Constitution "against all enemies, foreign and domestic." So they would look to the law to find out who is their Commander in Chief.

So I think this threat may actually be overblown. And again, we only have an issue if federal agencies or the military side with Trump, which I consider unlikely.

So violence in this case seems unnecessary. In fact, to avoid an issue with that, Congress may just let Trump lounge in the White House: They'll just cut off all funding for it and direct it to the real President. The White House would probably end up in a rather dilapidated state, which would be kinda sad, but Trump would not be running things.


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Last edited by beneficii on 18 Nov 2019, 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kraftiekortie
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18 Nov 2019, 6:17 pm

I believe Trump would (unwillingly) cede power to the next President, while creating a "martyrdom" for himself after he gets out of office.

He's probably not stupid enough to try to hold onto power in the event he loses the election.



TheCherokeeRosePrince
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18 Nov 2019, 6:17 pm

I think most likely Trump is going to be removed soon, someway somehow, and be replaced by Pence (who might turn out to be worse...)


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18 Nov 2019, 6:26 pm

I doubt that he will be removed. I believe it's more likely that he'll resign.

He's not likely to be convicted in an impeachment trial at this point; though future revelations might change this.



beneficii
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18 Nov 2019, 6:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe Trump would (unwillingly) cede power to the next President, while creating a "martyrdom" for himself after he gets out of office.

He's probably not stupid enough to try to hold onto power in the event he loses the election.


I agree. And if he does try, things will fall apart for him pretty quickly, which will just make his Presidency a black mark on the history of the office.


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TheCherokeeRosePrince
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18 Nov 2019, 6:30 pm

He could also lose the next election...


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kraftiekortie
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18 Nov 2019, 6:32 pm

I would say it's at least somewhat likely that he'll lose the next election.

He won at least five states by a less than 1% margin during the 2016 elections, including Florida. And he lost the popular vote.

I would say a heavier Democratic turnout would be conducive to Trump getting thrashed.



TheCherokeeRosePrince
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18 Nov 2019, 6:34 pm

Also didn't be pretty much start losing support in Kentucky, Georgia, and Louisiana recently?


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kraftiekortie
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18 Nov 2019, 6:35 pm

Yep. But I wish those three states had more electoral votes.

If he loses support in states like Ohio and Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin--then my optimism will really bloom.

Virginia is also wholly Democratic in its government now.



TheCherokeeRosePrince
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18 Nov 2019, 6:44 pm

Well I at least feel better that people in The Peach State are starting to wise up. :flower:


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ASPartOfMe
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18 Nov 2019, 7:16 pm

I think his ego and his history will prevent him leaving. Yes all sorts of people will be telling him he can’t get away with it, this time he has gone too far which is exactly what he has proven wrong time and time again and again and again.

I just do not have confidence in the congressional Republicans siding with the constitution. Whether it is because they are deathly afraid of their own voters or they never believed in the law applying to them or both they have not given me any reason that this time they will do the right thing long term for the country especially if the election is close.

Maybe this time it will be too far, probably the fear of a bunch a 60 year old MAGA’s with homemade weapons is overblown. Of course the Democrats and a few Republicans will try to enforce the constitution, and maybe the federal employees also but what of state and local governments?. If they arrest Trump as they should (assuming they figure out who should arrest him) how will his supporters react?

I envision more anarchy then civil war, the clusterf**k of all clusterfucks, the shitstorm of all shitstorms.

You can correctly argue we have been tested before and have come through worse but how many times can we keep metaphorically driving to the edge of the cliff before driving over it? Assuming what happened in the past will happen again is human but there is always a time when it doesn’t.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 18 Nov 2019, 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Persephone29
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18 Nov 2019, 7:18 pm

Wishful thinking on your part, OP. Get ready for another 4 years... Trump will never give up and he will be re-elected.


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TheCherokeeRosePrince
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18 Nov 2019, 7:26 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Wishful thinking on your part, OP. Get ready for another 4 years... Trump will never give up and he will be re-elected.



Nope, the cards do not lie! The Emperor will be replaced by The High Priest, for awhile. A man who imposes conservative values and religous control on the whole country. And then he will be replaced by The Empress who will bring light at the end of a dark tunnel, a rainbow after a storm. (She often appears in my other card readings).


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18 Nov 2019, 7:32 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
Wishful thinking on your part, OP. Get ready for another 4 years... Trump will never give up and he will be re-elected.

Your post is an important reminder that with all my catastrophizing about a Trump loss he could win. If that happens the left like the right in the other scenario will not accept the results. It will be blamed on the Russians, gerrymandering, the corporate deep state anyone but themselves. You will see what you saw after 2016 but a lot more intense because desperate people do desperate things.


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