17 Jun 2020, 2:24 pm
17 Jun 2020, 3:33 pm
Borromeo wrote:
magz wrote:
Borromeo wrote:
We need to lose the "hate crime" status. Hate crime = "thoughtcrime."
Assault is assault. "Microaggression" is ill manners. Discrimination is discrimination, and not everybody can have everything. Freedom is not the same as liberty.
Assault is assault. "Microaggression" is ill manners. Discrimination is discrimination, and not everybody can have everything. Freedom is not the same as liberty.
I agree with what you say about assault and "microagression".
I did give some thought to "hate speech", though... when it means promoting an ideology that dehumanizes a group of people. The world is too small and the weapons too powerful for tribe wars. Dehumanizing political opponents is as bad as any other dehumanizing and it's disturbingly common
I think you have a very valid point; however, 'hate speech' has gotten too broadly interpreted. Racial slurs are offensive and always have been, even if a lax or permissive society allowed for their public use and distribution. But here is an example from why I don't think "hate speech" laws will work.
OK. Catholicism is a religion & a fairly old-fashioned one. We have laws saying homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. And we have a teaching that masturbation is intrinsically disordered. (Cue the triggered, horny MF'ers on W.P.) The second teaching is just considered bizarre. The first one will get you jailed in Canada. But a Catholic can believe all these without hurting anyone.
(This is not for you people to dispute whether the Church is right or not; most of the people on here who hate the Church don't actually know much about it. But take it from me that the constant lobbying in favor of protected classes, has done more to make me skeptical of their helpfulness in society when all they want to do is make it work for them.)
Incidentally this is why I'm not associating myself with the autism awareness movement. I refuse to be part of that protected class or subculture, and end up with my public image & sense of worth irrevocably tied to a malfunction in the brain.
I see very clear distinction between statements like "homosexual sex is a sin" and statements like "homosexuals are a disease". Yes, the latter is repeated in some conservative circles in my country.
I've read a lot of highly regarded Catholic theologists clearly noticing the distinction, sticking to the former and rejecting the latter.
I've also read Catholic activists neglecting the distinction of the two.
Anti-Catholic activists tend to neglect the difference, so they can charge higher caliber.
I'm not fond of activists in most cases, including this one. I may personally disagree with both statements but sewing them together and fighting for the set is just wrong.
17 Jun 2020, 4:08 pm
sly279 wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
I agree Wolfram.
I believe all people have the same rights to freedom regardless of orientation, race, class, etc.
I also believe all violent crime is equal.
Does "hate crime" have a different punishment than the same crime minus "hate" ?
What is the legal reason for this distinction?
I'd say anyone who is violent has no excuse. Crime against romantic and domestic partners (presumably non-hate), is just as serious as "hate" crime against ideology. I'm trying to understand the law and why these distinctions are made, or why people draw lines in the sand to justify certain crimes, considering them less egregious.
I believe all people have the same rights to freedom regardless of orientation, race, class, etc.
I also believe all violent crime is equal.
Does "hate crime" have a different punishment than the same crime minus "hate" ?
What is the legal reason for this distinction?
I'd say anyone who is violent has no excuse. Crime against romantic and domestic partners (presumably non-hate), is just as serious as "hate" crime against ideology. I'm trying to understand the law and why these distinctions are made, or why people draw lines in the sand to justify certain crimes, considering them less egregious.
It carries more prison time. Cause if you hated the person you attacked it makes it a worse crime then some person who just for no reason attacks someone. The current laws consider the only reason people can hate someone is racism. It’s ridiculous
Well...if I ambush you and knock you out...just to steal your wallet, I get X amount of prison time. But if I knock you out because you are a member of a group I hate (like the local chapter of the Jehovah's Witness Gay Eskimos for Trump)then I would get added prison time -implying that attacking you just because of crass greed for your wallet is not as bad as attacking you out of some kind hatred for you. Even if the number of stitches in your head are the same either way. Does seem kind of arbitrary. And it implies that I could talk them down to a lesser to sentence if I could prove that "I didnt care who he was. I just wanted his money. Im an equal opportunity mugger. I beat everyone over the head regardless of race, creed, religion, or sexual orientation.Just as long as I have reason to think they have money on them"
I go back and forth on this. On one hand it does seem like the law is flirting with thought control to make a category of crime called "hate crimes". Other times it does seem like a needed thing to have that legal category. And other democracies do have laws similar to our hate crime laws, and yet those countries survive as democracies. Hard to say.
17 Jun 2020, 4:42 pm
17 Jun 2020, 4:46 pm
17 Jun 2020, 4:54 pm
17 Jun 2020, 5:09 pm
17 Jun 2020, 6:59 pm
goldfish21
Veteran
Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 22,612
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
17 Jun 2020, 7:50 pm
In ~100 years of trying the USA can’t make lunching black people for no reason a federal hate crime and trump supporters think that it should be a hate crime for treating them like a**holes for being a**holes? Wow.
Also:
No one is going to jail for being gay in Canada. Wtf is that about?
And the racial majority isn’t discriminated against or oppressed for their race like minorities are. Systemic racism & white privilege exist. Get over it. That’s why minorities of various groups are protected by civil & human rights laws.
_________________
No
for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.
17 Jun 2020, 7:59 pm
TheRobotLives wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
If it’s a physical assault, it’s a crime, anyway.
How about attacks on Trump detractors being a hate crime, too?
How about attacks on Trump detractors being a hate crime, too?
Trump supporters have polite disagreements with Dems, so not hate?
Trump supporters can also be ultra violent domestic terrorists. Trump supporters are generally known to make gross generalizations.
_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos
17 Jun 2020, 8:37 pm
TheRobotLives wrote:
Rep. Vernon Jones introduced a Georgia Bill to make attacks on Trump supporters a hate crime.
"It's hate and it's got to stop," Jones told Fox News.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgi ... hate-crime
"It's hate and it's got to stop," Jones told Fox News.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgi ... hate-crime
So much for the warm & fuzzy compassionate left of the 60s.
17 Jun 2020, 8:39 pm
I don't think a fascist president is conducive to any political faction being nice.
_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos
17 Jun 2020, 8:40 pm
Wolfram87 wrote:
Can I mitigate my sentencing by claiming that my heart is filled with the deepest respect and the utmost affection for people of whatever group the person I attacked might belong to, and that senseless violence is how I express my love?
I thought you leaned more to the conservative side of politics.
After what you said here, I'm not so sure.
17 Jun 2020, 8:46 pm
magz wrote:
Borromeo wrote:
We need to lose the "hate crime" status. Hate crime = "thoughtcrime."
Assault is assault. "Microaggression" is ill manners. Discrimination is discrimination, and not everybody can have everything. Freedom is not the same as liberty.
Assault is assault. "Microaggression" is ill manners. Discrimination is discrimination, and not everybody can have everything. Freedom is not the same as liberty.
I agree with what you say about assault and "microagression".
I did give some thought to "hate speech", though... when it means promoting an ideology that dehumanizes a group of people. The world is too small and the weapons too powerful for tribe wars. Dehumanizing political opponents is as bad as any other dehumanizing and it's disturbingly common
I totally agree,
Except in regard to NTs.
17 Jun 2020, 8:59 pm
IsabellaLinton wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Personally I don’t think political beliefs warrant the same protection as race, gender, nationality, sexual orientation, age, or disability. Political violence is wrong, but it isn’t “more wrong” than just beating someone up for the hell of it. It isn’t based on a person’s intrinsic characteristics.
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Definitions of Hate Crime:
"A hate crime (also known as a bias-motivated crime or bias crime) is a prejudice-motivated crime which occurs when a perpetrator targets a victim because of their membership (or perceived membership) of a certain social group or race."
I'm very rules-based and I read definitions literally. ^ I assumed that "social group or race" meant that political ideology counts as a form of hate crime, the same way terrorism is politically-motivated and considered a form of hate crime.
Maybe I misread in the definition. Does "social group" imply a socio-cultural group, or can it also mean an ideological group like those strongly affiliated with a political party? I'm not sure what they mean by "social group".
"Hate Crime" is there to target prejudice/bigotry in all forms.
It is being used as a social modifying tool.
It is trying to instil some discipline into people via greater penalties.
And there is an added social stigma attached to the label of those committing "Hate Crime"..
Sometimes it works,
Sometimes it doesn't.
The Oracle has spoken.
17 Jun 2020, 9:06 pm
goldfish21 wrote:
:lol: In ~100 years of trying the USA can’t make lunching black people for no reason a federal hate crime and trump supporters think that it should be a hate crime for treating them like a**holes for being a**holes? Wow.
Also:
No one is going to jail for being gay in Canada. Wtf is that about?
And the racial majority isn’t discriminated against or oppressed for their race like minorities are. Systemic racism & white privilege exist. Get over it. That’s why minorities of various groups are protected by civil & human rights laws.
Also:
No one is going to jail for being gay in Canada. Wtf is that about?
And the racial majority isn’t discriminated against or oppressed for their race like minorities are. Systemic racism & white privilege exist. Get over it. That’s why minorities of various groups are protected by civil & human rights laws.
I didn't say they were jailing Canadian homosexuals; if that were the case, you'd be in real trouble. I say that in Canada homophobic hate speech will get you locked up. That's called a lot of things but what I'd suggest is starting with reading comprehension.
When disagreeing with someone on any matter of right and wrong becomes illegal, then the government has mandated morality and thereby overstepped its bounds. The government, unlike Plato's "Republic," is very obviously NOT operated by philosophers, but by a narcissistic reality TV host in America, and a weak-willed career politician in Canada, and I could go on and on. The world has ended up with the leaders whom I fear it deserves.
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