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16 Mar 2021, 3:05 pm

It's easy to be generous with other people's money. Even easier if you don't know these people. Far easier still if you're taking the value of people's savings via deficit spending and can't be bothered to even pose the questions of what the long term ramifications of inflation are. I guess we'll find out, except I doubt it will be blamed on so-called compassionate legislation.



Daddy63
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16 Mar 2021, 3:48 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sure, the Constitution guaranties certain rights to individuals, but leaves it up to the States to decide whom those individuals shall be.

Take "All men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights".  Did you know that it was left up to the States to define the term "men"?  Did you know that the States first took the word "men" at its literal meaning (that of an adult male human)?  From there, the States, counties, and municipalities further defined "men" as those male humans of northern European descent (which countries varied) who owned land (minimum size varied) and who attended Protestant churches (denominations varied).  Only these "men" could vote, attend college, run for public office, marry the women of their choice, and own slaves.  This left out Africans, Asians, Middle-Easterners (especially Jews), and most especially women.

America declared its independence in 1776.

The Emancipation Proclamation took effect in 1865.

Women received the right to vote in 1920.

While the Left recognizes the civil rights of ALL individuals, the Right seems hell-bent on retaining those civil rights as privileges for only wealthy, white, protestant males to enjoy.


Was it recognizing "civil rights of ALL individuals" when they:

- forced slavery into the Constitution?
- Purposely counted slaves as 3/5 of a man only for political gain to get more seats in Congress?
- waged genocide on the Native Americans?
- forced the entire nation into a civil war over slavery that lead to the deaths of 700,000?
- attempted to block amendments to allow African Americans and women to vote?
- instituted the Jim Crow laws and waged a century of terror on African Americans through their militia wing the KKK?
- created massive social dependency programs that unfairly targeted minorities and poor and lead to massive increases in poverty?
- launched project 100,000 together with KKK leaders to purposely target African American men and send them off to slaughter in the Vietnam war which they started?
- segregated and continue to segregate our schools forcing poor and minority children to go to horrible, violent schools simply because of their skin color and the zip code they live in and in order to keep their own kids from being exposed to a "racial jungle?" How is it that today we still segregate our schools? It's unbelievable.
- fabricated hateful narratives again and again to divide American by skin color and then tell us only lives of certain skin colors matter? What part of that hateful nonsense respects the civil rights of all?

Why in your last line do you specifically target people for their skin color, religious beliefs and gender?



Fnord
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16 Mar 2021, 8:04 pm

Daddy63 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Sure, the Constitution guaranties certain rights to individuals, but leaves it up to the States to decide whom those individuals shall be.

Take "All men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights".  Did you know that it was left up to the States to define the term "men"?  Did you know that the States first took the word "men" at its literal meaning (that of an adult male human)?  From there, the States, counties, and municipalities further defined "men" as those male humans of northern European descent (which countries varied) who owned land (minimum size varied) and who attended Protestant churches (denominations varied).  Only these "men" could vote, attend college, run for public office, marry the women of their choice, and own slaves.  This left out Africans, Asians, Middle-Easterners (especially Jews), and most especially women.

America declared its independence in 1776.

The Emancipation Proclamation took effect in 1865.

Women received the right to vote in 1920.

While the Left recognizes the civil rights of ALL individuals, the Right seems hell-bent on retaining those civil rights as privileges for only wealthy, white, protestant males to enjoy.


Was it recognizing "civil rights of ALL individuals" when they:

- forced slavery into the Constitution?
- Purposely counted slaves as 3/5 of a man only for political gain to get more seats in Congress?
- waged genocide on the Native Americans?
- forced the entire nation into a civil war over slavery that lead to the deaths of 700,000?
- attempted to block amendments to allow African Americans and women to vote?
- instituted the Jim Crow laws and waged a century of terror on African Americans through their militia wing the KKK?
- created massive social dependency programs that unfairly targeted minorities and poor and lead to massive increases in poverty?
- launched project 100,000 together with KKK leaders to purposely target African American men and send them off to slaughter in the Vietnam war which they started?
- segregated and continue to segregate our schools forcing poor and minority children to go to horrible, violent schools simply because of their skin color and the zip code they live in and in order to keep their own kids from being exposed to a "racial jungle?" How is it that today we still segregate our schools? It's unbelievable.
- fabricated hateful narratives again and again to divide American by skin color and then tell us only lives of certain skin colors matter? What part of that hateful nonsense respects the civil rights of all?

Why in your last line do you specifically target people for their skin color, religious beliefs and gender?
IF all this happened as you say, then it happened with the full authority and cooperation of the Right.

After all, this country was founded on the principles of Imperialism by Genocide, Slavery of Africans, and the Subjugation of Women as Second-Class Citizens under the full authority of the "Founding Fathers", all of whom were wealthy white males who willingly and knowingly signed off on those very same principles:

Delaware:
• George Read
• Caesar Rodney
• Thomas McKean

Pennsylvania:
• George Clymer
• Benjamin Franklin
• Robert Morris
• John Morton
• Benjamin Rush
• George Ross
• James Smith
• James Wilson
• George Taylor

Massachusetts:
• John Adams
• Samuel Adams
• John Hancock
• Robert Treat Paine
• Elbridge Gerry

New Hampshire:
• Josiah Bartlett
• William Whipple
• Matthew Thornton

Rhode Island:
• Stephen Hopkins
• William Ellery

New York:
• Lewis Morris
• Philip Livingston
• Francis Lewis
• William Floyd

Georgia:
• Button Gwinnett
• Lyman Hall
• George Walton

Virginia:
• Richard Henry Lee
• Francis Lightfoot Lee
• Carter Braxton
• Benjamin Harrison
• Thomas Jefferson
• George Wythe
• Thomas Nelson, Jr.

North Carolina:
• William Hooper
• John Penn
• Joseph Hewes

South Carolina:
• Edward Rutledge
• Arthur Middleton
• Thomas Lynch, Jr.
• Thomas Heyward, Jr.

New Jersey:
• Abraham Clark
• John Hart
• Francis Hopkinson
• Richard Stockton
• John Witherspoon

Connecticut:
• Samuel Huntington
• Roger Sherman
• William Williams
• Oliver Wolcott

Maryland:
• Charles Carroll
• Samuel Chase
• Thomas Stone
• William Paca


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Daddy63
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16 Mar 2021, 10:41 pm

Fnord wrote:
After all, this country was founded on the principles of Imperialism by Genocide, Slavery of Africans, and the Subjugation of Women as Second-Class Citizens under the full authority of the "Founding Fathers", all of whom were wealthy white males who willingly and knowingly signed off on those very same principles:



Where do you find these principles of imperialism and all the divisive hate you mention in the original Constitution the founders wrote? Since it is the founding legal document of the country written as you point out by a bunch of white men you'd expect it to lay out differences in rights for people according to gender and skin color if what you say is true. Where exactly can I find the parts about Africans or blacks or whites or men or women that you mention?



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16 Mar 2021, 11:14 pm

This is all incredibly off topic from the original post, back on topic please or start a new thread.



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17 Mar 2021, 1:11 am

Unless business is compelled to hire everyone in need of work, and paying workers an actual living wage (because they've demonstrated that they won't if it's left to them), then people will need a Universal Basic Income in order to survive.


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Biscuitman
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17 Mar 2021, 2:54 am

A well timed thread maybe

Spain looking to trial a 4 day working week
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launch-trial-of-four-day-working-week



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17 Mar 2021, 2:56 am

Daddy63 wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
I wish we had national conversations more around what we as a society are trying to get out of this life. We might then look differently at what to put in place now.


The founders gave us a great start with this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The main function of the government was to ensure those rights. With amendments and other laws, the main goal of our government now ought to be ensure individual rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for every Americans regardless of gender, skin color, religious beliefs and sexual orientations.

Sadly our new government seems to want to divide all Americans by gender, skin color, religious beliefs and/or sexual orientations for the sole purpose of achieving a neo-Marxist utopian outcome for some groups by infringing on the individual rights of others even those guaranteed by the Constitution.

When we get back to the Constitution and laws that respect individual rights of all, we'll be just fine. People can decide for themselves what they want to get from life without others taking from them.


I wasn't talking about politics or founding fathers etc. I was talking about what we, as individuals and as a society, want out of this life thing.

Happiness, the option of more time to relax, the option of more time with our families etc.



r00tb33r
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17 Mar 2021, 4:36 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Unless business is compelled to hire everyone in need of work, and paying workers an actual living wage (because they've demonstrated that they won't if it's left to them), then people will need a Universal Basic Income in order to survive.

No, they can be self-employed or otherwise have a business of their own.

Come on people, use that simian gift! Apply some imagination. :roll:



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17 Mar 2021, 7:38 am

r00tb33r wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Unless business is compelled to hire everyone in need of work, and paying workers an actual living wage (because they've demonstrated that they won't if it's left to them), then people will need a Universal Basic Income in order to survive.

No, they can be self-employed or otherwise have a business of their own.

Come on people, use that simian gift! Apply some imagination. :roll:


As a fiction writer, I'm technically self employed I suppose, but without my wife I'd die of starvation, and/or exposure. Poverty is something most people in the arts live with, and I'm sure it's common among most self employed persons in general.
As for starting a business of one's own - - there are probably millions of people who have wanted to, but have been denied loans or any kind of financial help by the banks. For most, it's easier said than done.


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MidnightRose
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17 Mar 2021, 1:02 pm

Of all the new businesses, about half fail in the first five years and a big reason is a lack of capital. I don't think saying "start a business" is an adequate response to people living in poverty or worse.



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17 Mar 2021, 1:23 pm

MidnightRose wrote:
Of all the new businesses, about half fail in the first five years and a big reason is a lack of capital. I don't think saying "start a business" is an adequate response to people living in poverty or worse.
Then what is?


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18 Mar 2021, 7:33 pm

Policy that actually helps people. For example, we have a decaying infrastructure in the US, we could give a lot of people good work and help fix our bridges with some kind of federal jobs program. And making sure people's basic needs are met. UBI is one way, welfare is another. We can debate the finer points, but when people have roofs over their heads and food they actually have a path forward to getting on their feet. Then they will actually go on to be productive, and thus will be profitable to the country long term. People who struggle to make ends meet tend to participate in risky behaviors, tend to be uneducated (which has more social costs), can't be taxed effectively, commit crime, etc.

To be clear, I think most able adults should be working. I just see an effective social safety net as the best way to get them on their feet and productive. Not everyone can start a business, in fact, most people will be employees. I mean, I'm trying to (I know it's unlikely) turn one of my creative hobbies into something I can make money from. Because I've been uncomfortable in every job I've had. But the way our society is right now there are only so people who can be freelancers or entrepreneurs. Any individual, sure, could become anything they want. But when we talk about policy we're talking about broader social trends. Therefore we need a jobs program, UBI, welfare, or something. You can't just tell people to "start a business" when they have thousands of dollars in medical debt, or are struggling to afford rent.