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Putin recognizes rebel territories in Ukraine as indepent !

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r00tb33r
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22 Feb 2022, 7:05 am

magz wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
I think the US-orchestrated coup, that created unfavorable political conditions for the sole warm-water navy port the Russians have is what did it. I'm still not sure what the American intelligence thought would happen if they tried a stunt like that. Was it a miscalculation?

What makes you believe the coup was US-orchestrated?

That is not a disputed historical fact. :lol:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict



magz
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22 Feb 2022, 7:38 am

r00tb33r wrote:
magz wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
I think the US-orchestrated coup, that created unfavorable political conditions for the sole warm-water navy port the Russians have is what did it. I'm still not sure what the American intelligence thought would happen if they tried a stunt like that. Was it a miscalculation?

What makes you believe the coup was US-orchestrated?

That is not a disputed historical fact. :lol:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
Your link leads to an icon alone. Anyway, The Guardian is far from an objective source on hot matters. Pre-Maidan Ukraine was an already hot place, struggling between enormous corruption, pro-EU ambitions and Russian influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Initial_causes
Of course everyone tried to gain on the unrest, as always in politics - but you don't "orchestrate" over half a million protesters, even when you're US intelligence.


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kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2022, 7:42 am

Why is ANYBODY advocating for RUSSIA?

Putin wants to go back to the glory days of the USSR. He wants the influence of Russia to permeate areas around it and beyond it. He wants authoritarianism to reign supreme without even the excuse of Marxism/Leninism—without even claiming that he is seeking a utopia where “the common worker” will have as much say as the oligarch.

I’d rather live under the flawed ideologies of NATO nations—than under the sway of the Russian secret police without the supposed mitigating features of Marxist-Leninism.

We must stop the killing Red Tide of Russian aggression.



r00tb33r
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22 Feb 2022, 7:47 am

magz wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
magz wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
I think the US-orchestrated coup, that created unfavorable political conditions for the sole warm-water navy port the Russians have is what did it. I'm still not sure what the American intelligence thought would happen if they tried a stunt like that. Was it a miscalculation?

What makes you believe the coup was US-orchestrated?

That is not a disputed historical fact. :lol:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict
Your link leads to an icon alone. Anyway, The Guardian is far from an objective source on hot matters. Pre-Maidan Ukraine was an already hot place, struggling between enormous corruption, pro-EU ambitions and Russian influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Initial_causes
Of course everyone tried to gain on the unrest, as always in politics - but you don't "orchestrate" over half a million protesters, even when you're US intelligence.

It's not like things are stable in Kiev now. The fact that they keep having to suppress the opposition instead of a peaceful political process says a lot. It only takes a gentle push for a revolution or a coup to happen there.
It's not certain if the existing regime could survive the internal pressure after a weak but hopeless response if the invasion happens. There will be an internal loss of confidence that no amount of jail cells can solve.



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22 Feb 2022, 7:51 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Why is ANYBODY advocating for RUSSIA?

Putin wants to go back to the glory days of the USSR. He wants the influence of Russia to permeate areas around it and beyond it. He wants authoritarianism to reign supreme without even the excuse of Marxism/Leninism—without even claiming that he is seeking a utopia where “the common worker” will have as much say as the oligarch.

I’d rather live under the flawed ideologies of NATO nations—than under the sway of the Russian secret police without the supposed mitigating features of Marxist-Leninism.

We must stop the killing Red Tide of Russian aggression.


Even with Putin's captive audience in Russia he hasn't even remotely approached the authoritative oppression of the USSR and he's had decades to do so.



kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2022, 7:52 am

Ukraine is basically stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But if Russia holds sway there, it screws with the overall balance of power in favor of the Russians.

I, as an American, don’t want that.



r00tb33r
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22 Feb 2022, 7:52 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Why is ANYBODY advocating for RUSSIA?

I'm firmly neural. I have no stake in the matter so I'll retire right here.



r00tb33r
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22 Feb 2022, 7:53 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Ukraine is basically stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But if Russia holds sway there, it screws with the overall balance of power in favor of the Russians.

I, as an American, don’t want that.

They are.

Does it?

Besides, it's not like it's our backyard over there...



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22 Feb 2022, 7:56 am

If Putin succeeds in Ukraine, who’s next????

It could very well become a “red tide,” even if Putin is not a communist by ideology.

We can’t just let Russia roll over—like we let Hitler roll over.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 22 Feb 2022, 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

magz
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22 Feb 2022, 7:56 am

Nades wrote:
magz wrote:
Nades wrote:
NATO.
The very existence of it?

Yes. Russia knows the intention on NATO. Get big and get close to Russian borders....that's literally it.

Being one of the Eastern NATO members, I'd say its purpose here is to prevent Russia from regaining these territories.
Did you read Putin's demands? He wanted NATO presence to shrink to pre-1997 state. That would mean exactly removing the main obstacle form regaining the former USSR "zone of influence".

If you think not removing obstacles for your goals is a "poke" that makes the other side "the agressor", then you're ready to justify any agression and blame it on its victims.


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Nades
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22 Feb 2022, 7:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Ukraine is basically stuck between a rock and a hard place.

But if Russia holds sway there, it screws with the overall balance of power in favor of the Russians.

I, as an American, don’t want that.


Why not? It's land a lot closer to Russia than America?

Why should America have more power on Russia's doorstep (literally talking about meters from Russia's border) than Russia themselves?



magz
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22 Feb 2022, 8:00 am

I do have a backyard over there (well, I actually live in an apartment block so I don't literally own a backyard).
I'm somewhere further on Putin's "who's next" list.
Kaliningrad Oblast rocket launchers have been aiming at my city for the last 30 years.
I'm in NATO for a freaking purpose - exactly in case of something like this.


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kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2022, 8:04 am

If anybody is for authoritarian government with mock elections, then I could understand the appeal of Putin’s aggression.

Otherwise…I just don’t see the appeal.

We cannot just “let this go.”

We did nothing when Hitler re-militarized starting in 1936…and look what happened.



magz
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22 Feb 2022, 8:07 am

This all reminds me of Czechoslovakia in 1938...


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kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2022, 8:08 am

^Yep…I do see the parallels….

If we “let this go,” we would be doomed to “repeat history.”



kraftiekortie
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22 Feb 2022, 8:12 am

It’s a choice between stark authoritarianism and relative democracy.

I choose the latter.

Under a system like Putin’s we just might not be able to criticize him online. Not be able to have a dialogue, period.

Trump aspired to this sort of thing, too. Putin and Trump have many points of identification with each other.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 22 Feb 2022, 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.