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Fnord
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28 Nov 2008, 6:14 pm

ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.

Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why. He didn't get smacked for doing something really bad, and he knew that, which is why he hated his dad. And it's why a lot of abused children turn into hating adults.

Hurting a Child is not a good form of punishment. It's cruel. I can see why this poor child did this, (sort of) he got tired of the abuse and finally had enough. another link descriptuion about it says that there were no signs of "physical or sexual trauma" I think that being spanking is pretty traumatic.

First-Degree Murder is even more traumatic for the victim - none have ever recovered from it.

LOL. Yes, But I'd say abuse is worse. When you are abused you actually have to live, with it going on.

Abuse is easier, because you can recover from it (I have). Death by shotgun blast is usually permanent (the 8-year old kid's victims haven't). Judge the crime, not the criminal.

You *can* recover from it, but it doesn't mean that you *will*

Which make murder a greater crime than abuse.


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28 Nov 2008, 6:21 pm

Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.

Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why. He didn't get smacked for doing something really bad, and he knew that, which is why he hated his dad. And it's why a lot of abused children turn into hating adults.

Hurting a Child is not a good form of punishment. It's cruel. I can see why this poor child did this, (sort of) he got tired of the abuse and finally had enough. another link descriptuion about it says that there were no signs of "physical or sexual trauma" I think that being spanking is pretty traumatic.

First-Degree Murder is even more traumatic for the victim - none have ever recovered from it.

LOL. Yes, But I'd say abuse is worse. When you are abused you actually have to live, with it going on.

Abuse is easier, because you can recover from it (I have). Death by shotgun blast is usually permanent (the 8-year old kid's victims haven't). Judge the crime, not the criminal.

You *can* recover from it, but it doesn't mean that you *will*

Which make murder a greater crime than abuse.
I don't think it does. I think abuse is worse because you have to live with the Psychological effects of it. You feel no more pain after you are murdered. You will always feel the pain of abuse.



Spokane_Girl

28 Nov 2008, 7:11 pm

I was spanked as a kid and look at me, no effect done. I still love my family and I still see them. Hey it taught me to listen and behave.


Rather spanking is wrong or not, it's everyone's opinion. Respect it. It's not considered abuse to child services unless you hit them too hard and leave a mark or injuring them.



Fnord
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28 Nov 2008, 7:27 pm

ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.

Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why. He didn't get smacked for doing something really bad, and he knew that, which is why he hated his dad. And it's why a lot of abused children turn into hating adults.

Hurting a Child is not a good form of punishment. It's cruel. I can see why this poor child did this, (sort of) he got tired of the abuse and finally had enough. another link descriptuion about it says that there were no signs of "physical or sexual trauma" I think that being spanking is pretty traumatic.

First-Degree Murder is even more traumatic for the victim - none have ever recovered from it.

LOL. Yes, But I'd say abuse is worse. When you are abused you actually have to live, with it going on.

Abuse is easier, because you can recover from it (I have). Death by shotgun blast is usually permanent (the 8-year old kid's victims haven't). Judge the crime, not the criminal.

You *can* recover from it, but it doesn't mean that you *will*

Which make murder a greater crime than abuse.

I don't think it does. I think abuse is worse because you have to live with the Psychological effects of it. You feel no more pain after you are murdered. You will always feel the pain of abuse.

I keep forgetting that there are many people on WP that believe in an afterlife. My approach is more rational - That which does not kill me not only makes me stronger, but it has also made a grave tactical error.

The kid committed murder. Murder is a crime. Criminals should be punished. Lock him up for the rest of his natural life.


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28 Nov 2008, 9:03 pm

Fnord wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Wow, I didn't know kids that young can get charged for a crime. I knew kids young as ten do but not at 8.

Premeditated murder is premeditated murder, no matter how old the perpetrator is.


True, but at that age you have to wonder if he really understood what he was doing.

I lament the fact that no one did enough to prevent this even though abuse was at least suspected.


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28 Nov 2008, 9:10 pm

CelticRose wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Wow, I didn't know kids that young can get charged for a crime. I knew kids young as ten do but not at 8.

Premeditated murder is premeditated murder, no matter how old the perpetrator is.

True, but at that age you have to wonder if he really understood what he was doing.

I lament the fact that no one did enough to prevent this even though abuse was at least suspected.

Suspicion is insufficient proof. Had the child gone to the authorities (a teacher, perhaps) and shown the bruises (if any), Child Protective Services would have been brought in and a tragedy may have been averted.

But no, he wanted to kill, so he planned the killing and carried it out, so he understood what he was doing. When killing is seen as the ultimate solution for any problem, and this solution is presented in movies, on television, and in video games, and Child Protective Services is often portrayed as cold-hearted and monstrous in movies and TV, then it's easy to see why he chose murder instead.

Lock him up for life.


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28 Nov 2008, 9:28 pm

Fnord wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Wow, I didn't know kids that young can get charged for a crime. I knew kids young as ten do but not at 8.

Premeditated murder is premeditated murder, no matter how old the perpetrator is.

True, but at that age you have to wonder if he really understood what he was doing.

I lament the fact that no one did enough to prevent this even though abuse was at least suspected.

Suspicion is insufficient proof. Had the child gone to the authorities (a teacher, perhaps) and shown the bruises (if any), Child Protective Services would have been brought in and a tragedy may have been averted.

But no, he wanted to kill, so he planned the killing and carried it out, so he understood what he was doing. When killing is seen as the ultimate solution for any problem, and this solution is presented in movies, on television, and in video games, and Child Protective Services is often portrayed as cold-hearted and monstrous in movies and TV, then it's easy to see why he chose murder instead.

Lock him up for life.


Child Protective Services was called in, but, as usual in Arizona, they didn't do a thing. His grandparents were quoted as not being surprised that this happened and that the parents were "too hard on him".

When I was six years old, one of my teachers discovered a cigarette burn on my shoulder (the wound was about an inch deep). I was asked several times how it happened, and I could only answer that I didn't know (I blocked it out so effectively that to this day I don't know who did it to me). My parents denied any knowledge. The matter was dropped without any further investigation. After that, my parents made sure that they didn't leave any marks on me.

In movies, television, and video games the actor isn't killed or the character comes back. An 8 year old might not understand the difference between fiction and real life. There have been documented cases where a child has accidentally killed themselves or someone else because they were imitating something that they saw on TV and didn't realize what the real-life consequences would be.


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28 Nov 2008, 9:29 pm

Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ShadesOfMe wrote:
LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.

Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why. He didn't get smacked for doing something really bad, and he knew that, which is why he hated his dad. And it's why a lot of abused children turn into hating adults.

Hurting a Child is not a good form of punishment. It's cruel. I can see why this poor child did this, (sort of) he got tired of the abuse and finally had enough. another link descriptuion about it says that there were no signs of "physical or sexual trauma" I think that being spanking is pretty traumatic.

First-Degree Murder is even more traumatic for the victim - none have ever recovered from it.

LOL. Yes, But I'd say abuse is worse. When you are abused you actually have to live, with it going on.

Abuse is easier, because you can recover from it (I have). Death by shotgun blast is usually permanent (the 8-year old kid's victims haven't). Judge the crime, not the criminal.

You *can* recover from it, but it doesn't mean that you *will*

Which make murder a greater crime than abuse.

I don't think it does. I think abuse is worse because you have to live with the Psychological effects of it. You feel no more pain after you are murdered. You will always feel the pain of abuse.

I keep forgetting that there are many people on WP that believe in an afterlife. My approach is more rational - That which does not kill me not only makes me stronger, but it has also made a grave tactical error.

The kid committed murder. Murder is a crime. Criminals should be punished. Lock him up for the rest of his natural life.

I did not say That i believe in afterlife.



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28 Nov 2008, 9:34 pm

CelticRose wrote:
Fnord wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Spokane_Girl wrote:
Wow, I didn't know kids that young can get charged for a crime. I knew kids young as ten do but not at 8.

Premeditated murder is premeditated murder, no matter how old the perpetrator is.

True, but at that age you have to wonder if he really understood what he was doing.

I lament the fact that no one did enough to prevent this even though abuse was at least suspected.

Suspicion is insufficient proof. Had the child gone to the authorities (a teacher, perhaps) and shown the bruises (if any), Child Protective Services would have been brought in and a tragedy may have been averted.

But no, he wanted to kill, so he planned the killing and carried it out, so he understood what he was doing. When killing is seen as the ultimate solution for any problem, and this solution is presented in movies, on television, and in video games, and Child Protective Services is often portrayed as cold-hearted and monstrous in movies and TV, then it's easy to see why he chose murder instead.

Lock him up for life.

CelticRose wrote:
Child Protective Services was called in, but, as usual in Arizona, they didn't do a thing. His grandparents were quoted as not being surprised that this happened and that the parents were "too hard on him".

Insufficient evidence, perhaps?

CelticRose wrote:
When I was six years old, one of my teachers discovered a cigarette burn on my shoulder (the wound was about an inch deep). I was asked several times how it happened, and I could only answer that I didn't know (I blocked it out so effectively that to this day I don't know who did it to me). My parents denied any knowledge. The matter was dropped without any further investigation. After that, my parents made sure that they didn't leave any marks on me.

An inch deep? You measured it?

CelticRose wrote:
In movies, television, and video games the actor isn't killed or the character comes back. An 8 year old might not understand the difference between fiction and real life. There have been documented cases where a child has accidentally killed themselves or someone else because they were imitating something that they saw on TV and didn't realize what the real-life consequences would be.

Toy point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. Then they're gone. End of problem.

What more does an 8-year old need to understand?


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28 Nov 2008, 9:43 pm

Macbeth wrote:
violet_yoshi wrote:
I wonder if anyone will now see that spanking is child abuse. It's also in a way sexual abuse, since a person's behind is close to their genitals. So really, it's pretty close to a form of rape, someone taking your pants down and manipulating you.

I guess next time I see an animal spank their child, I can say "I hope he has the sense to kill you like that boy in the news" Well that is what I would want to say to them, I imagine if someone can be that sadistic towards a child, there's nothing stopping them from physically attacking another adult either.


That's highly unlikely, and something of an unfair generalisation. To compare anyone who has ever spanked a child with some kind of sadistic rapist is insulting, wrong and ret*d. There are thousands of children (of roughly my age or thereabouts) who received a slap as a means of discipline at some point in their youthful careers. There are whole generations of people who were regularly subjected to corporal punishment at home and school. How many of them went on to slaughter their parents? How many of their parents were sadistic abusive child rapists?

And you have a fairly odd take on what constitutes sexual abuse, I might add. If someone kicks you in the nuts in a fight is that sexual abuse, or just fighting? Glad to see you encourage patricide in toddlers as well.


QFT.

Spanking is not always a form of abuse. Actually, the Supreme Court ruled to allow it in schools, deeming it not "cruel and unusual punishment". Furthermore, did he count spankings as how many times he was hit (ie, in one session, a hand was laid on him twice), or did he count it per session? Was it a hand or a belt/switch/etc that was used? These things make a big difference. The grandparents' quotes don't count for too much in th at; it's a subjective estimation, clouded by a subjective perspective of the grandson.

I have a feeling he understood exactly what he was doing. There was every indication that he planned it, followed it through, and murdered two people. Ultimately, his age doesn't matter, and the excuse of abuse probably won't fly too well - there are many, many people who have been abused (and abused worse) who didn't turn around and shoot their parents. To show such a string of violence at a young age is not a good indication for older life; he should be put away.


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Last edited by RainSong on 28 Nov 2008, 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Nov 2008, 9:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
Child Protective Services was called in, but, as usual in Arizona, they didn't do a thing. His grandparents were quoted as not being surprised that this happened and that the parents were "too hard on him".

Insufficient evidence, perhaps?

The point was that they probably didn't look hard enough to find evidence -- CPS here seldom does. There's a gag order on the case so I'm having to rely on what little the media can manage to dredge up. If I hear of more evidence I'll let you know.


Fnord wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
When I was six years old, one of my teachers discovered a cigarette burn on my shoulder (the wound was about an inch deep). I was asked several times how it happened, and I could only answer that I didn't know (I blocked it out so effectively that to this day I don't know who did it to me). My parents denied any knowledge. The matter was dropped without any further investigation. After that, my parents made sure that they didn't leave any marks on me.

An inch deep? You measured it?

When the scab finally started to come off, there was a part in the center that was still attached. My mother got impatient to get rid of it and pulled it out. The central part was approximately an inch deep. The point was that it was the type of wound that should have gotten my parents investigated, but as usual in Arizona, nothing was done.

Fnord wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
In movies, television, and video games the actor isn't killed or the character comes back. An 8 year old might not understand the difference between fiction and real life. There have been documented cases where a child has accidentally killed themselves or someone else because they were imitating something that they saw on TV and didn't realize what the real-life consequences would be.

Toy point a gun at someone and pull the trigger. Then they're gone. End of problem.

What more does an 8-year old need to understand?

That the person is really dead and won't come back later.


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28 Nov 2008, 9:51 pm

CelticRose wrote:
That the person is really dead and won't come back later.


That's not a case of brain science. It's stretching to say that he wouldn't know that, really.


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28 Nov 2008, 10:01 pm

RainSong wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
That the person is really dead and won't come back later.


That's not a case of brain science. It's stretching to say that he wouldn't know that, really.

I read of a case once where a boy hung himself. After questioning his brother, it turned out that the boy was trying to imitate something he saw a cartoon character do. The cartoon character, of course, was unharmed, and the boy didn't understand that the same stunt would kill someone in real life.

Children can't always tell fantasy from reality.


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28 Nov 2008, 10:02 pm

LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.


Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why.


I agree, I was also smacked as a child, but there was always a reason, and I always was told why. It was never unprovoked, it was never with an implement, and it was never severely painful or anything. Spanking can be abusive, obviously, but it's not always so.

hartzofspace wrote:
I once read of an 8 year old girl in Scotland, who stabbed her friend to death while playing. But the news article went on to say that the stabbing hadn't been an accident, that the girl did it on purpose. This was around 1973 or 1974.


Could it be Mary Bell? She throttled him, though, so it might be another case - she was very severely disturbed, her mother had attempted to murder her several times (the rest of the family knew about it and not just did nothing, but stopped her from giving her up for adoption), she had been sexually abused, etc.


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28 Nov 2008, 10:08 pm

CelticRose wrote:
RainSong wrote:
CelticRose wrote:
That the person is really dead and won't come back later.


That's not a case of brain science. It's stretching to say that he wouldn't know that, really.

I read of a case once where a boy hung himself. After questioning his brother, it turned out that the boy was trying to imitate something he saw a cartoon character do. The cartoon character, of course, was unharmed, and the boy didn't understand that the same stunt would kill someone in real life.

Children can't always tell fantasy from reality.


I've heard of a case like that as well. However, this is not the same scenario. The article stated that he had promised himself that he would never be spanked again after 1,000 times; that indicates that he was planning on being done with it forever, regardless of how he accomplished that (killing his father is a permanent solution; death is permanent). Beyond that, an article a while back stated that a priest had been consulted in whether or not it would have been moral to teach the boy how to shoot. If one is concerned about morals, it makes sense that he would have been taught the consequences of the weapon as well, which includes death. He thought this through; this wasn't a spur of the moment, like-my-favorite show type of thing.


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Spokane_Girl

28 Nov 2008, 10:17 pm

pbcoll wrote:
LadyMacbeth wrote:
Emoal6 wrote:
well, just goes to show, spanking is a primitave tool of parenting that needs to be abolished. Hitting your child doesnt make them want to understand what they did was wrong, it just makes them hate you more.


Not necessarily true. I used to get a smack on the legs if I were naughty, but I understood why I was being smacked, as my parents told me why. I didn't like pain (still don't, at least, not "bad" pain ;) ), and so I learned my lesson quickly.

If you're getting smacked by a reasonable human being, there's probably a good reason why.


I agree, I was also smacked as a child, but there was always a reason, and I always was told why. It was never unprovoked, it was never with an implement, and it was never severely painful or anything. Spanking can be abusive, obviously, but it's not always so.

hartzofspace wrote:
I once read of an 8 year old girl in Scotland, who stabbed her friend to death while playing. But the news article went on to say that the stabbing hadn't been an accident, that the girl did it on purpose. This was around 1973 or 1974.


Could it be Mary Bell? She throttled him, though, so it might be another case - she was very severely disturbed, her mother had attempted to murder her several times (the rest of the family knew about it and not just did nothing, but stopped her from giving her up for adoption), she had been sexually abused, etc.



No, couldn't be. She was 10 or 11 when she did the crime and it happened in 1968. She was released in 1980 at age 23 and changed her name and had a kid later on.