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goldfish21
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27 Jan 2020, 1:03 pm

EzraS wrote:
I have a feeling that Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist who is presiding will not go along with a total sham cover up.


Yet many speculate that he would just allow the senators to vote on things and decide for themselves.

But if it is a total sham coverup and he rules that witnesses are allowed, he will be able to sleep soundly I suppose, buuut apparently the senate has veto power over his ruling anyways and they could still say no witnesses.


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27 Jan 2020, 1:30 pm

EzraS wrote:
I have a feeling that Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist who is presiding will not go along with a total sham cover up.
Maybe I am missing something in the context of this conversation but Rehnquist has been dead for 15 years.


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kraftiekortie
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27 Jan 2020, 9:15 pm

The Chief Justice is named John Roberts.



auntblabby
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27 Jan 2020, 9:37 pm

god almighty could testify, and the GOP senators would still say "nya nya nyanya nya! not listening! hail to my sweet satan!"



EzraS
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27 Jan 2020, 10:53 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The Chief Justice is named John Roberts.


Alas I had his predecessor William Rehnquist stuck in my head. He presided over the Clinton impeachment.



EzraS
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27 Jan 2020, 11:15 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
I have a feeling that Chief Justice of the United States William Rehnquist who is presiding will not go along with a total sham cover up.


Yet many speculate that he would just allow the senators to vote on things and decide for themselves.

But if it is a total sham coverup and he rules that witnesses are allowed, he will be able to sleep soundly I suppose, buuut apparently the senate has veto power over his ruling anyways and they could still say no witnesses.


Many speculate that the case against Trump is codswallop. And if they are right, Trump is not going to be convicted. So far from what I have gathered from the raw details of the thing the democrats do not really seem to have a case.

It really seems to come down to the democrats being determined to get oust Trump and the republicans being determined not to let them get their way.

You say the republicans are pulling a sham and others say the democrats are pulling a sham. Maybe both sides are.



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27 Jan 2020, 11:19 pm

I think a huge problem here is that no one, no one could convincingly argue that the democrats have been and are simply impartial objective bastions of justice with this. They wanted to oust Trump before he was even inaugurated and the reason after new reason after new reason after new reason they've wished for his ouster from pre-inauguration through the present have not been related to Ukraine. The huge problem is that to a large portion of the population the democrats have been the quintessential definition of partisan. They've wanted him gone before "day one" and have tried constant and varied means to do so. People have to understand the optics on this to anyone other than devotees.



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27 Jan 2020, 11:25 pm

It is morally and legally wrong/abusive of the office of POTUS, for a sitting president to use the powers of his office to persecute his political enemies, especially to enlist foreign powers to do so. In his conduct while President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, in violation of his constitutional oath to faithfully execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution “to take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” has sought to pressure the government of Ukraine to investigate alleged actions of Democratic party rivals including presidential candidate Joseph Biden.
According to the White House summary of a July 25, 2019, phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky, President Trump urged President Zelensky to investigate Joseph Biden as well as other matters related to "Russiagate." As pressure on Zelensky, Trump was withholding funding for weapons that had been appropriated by Congress. Asked about this quid pro quo, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney openly admitted to it. Asked on camera about urging a foreign government to investigate a political rival, President Trump openly urged Ukraine again to investigate Biden and asked China to do so as well. Despite this open embrace of his actions, President Trump publicly suggested that whoever had made the content of his call with President Zelensky known should be killed.
On July 27, 1974, the House Committee on the Judiciary adopted an article of impeachment against then-President Richard M. Nixon accusing him of failing to comply with Congressional subpoenas. President Donald J. Trump has similarly refused to comply with subpoenas. Counsel to the President Pat A. Cipollone has written a letter stating that President Trump will not comply with subpoenas related to impeachment investigations. The Defense Department, under President Trump, has stated a similar intent to refuse to comply. Congressional attorneys have acknowledged that President Trump is obstructing the impeachment inquiry. Such obstruction is itself an impeachable offense.
In these ways, President Donald J. Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President, and subversive of constitutional government, to the prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States. Wherefore, President Donald J. Trump, by such conduct, is guilty of an impeachable offense warranting removal from office. In these and similar actions and decisions, President Donald J. Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President, and subversive of constitutional government, to the prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States. Wherefore, President Donald J. Trump, by such conduct, is guilty of an impeachable offense warranting removal from office.



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27 Jan 2020, 11:33 pm

Magna wrote:
I think a huge problem here is that no one, no one could convincingly argue that the democrats have been and are simply impartial objective bastions of justice with this. They wanted to oust Trump before he was even inaugurated and the reason after new reason after new reason after new reason they've wished for his ouster from pre-inauguration through the present have not been related to Ukraine. The huge problem is that to a large portion of the population the democrats have been the quintessential definition of partisan. They've wanted him gone before "day one" and have tried constant and varied means to do so. People have to understand the optics on this to anyone other than devotees.


That is why it is being said that this has been going on for nearly 4 years. They were saying he needed to be impeached even before he assumed office. It seems that there has always been zero impartiality regarding this. It seems that there has always been a burning desire to depose him. And if this is a matter of them just coming up with something to try deposing a president it is unlikely they will succeed.



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27 Jan 2020, 11:38 pm

auntblabby wrote:
It is morally and legally wrong/abusive of the office of POTUS, for a sitting president to use the powers of his office to persecute his political enemies, especially to enlist foreign powers to do so. In his conduct while President of the United States, Donald J. Trump, in violation of his constitutional oath to faithfully execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution “to take care that the laws be faithfully executed,” has sought to pressure the government of Ukraine to investigate alleged actions of Democratic party rivals including presidential candidate Joseph Biden.
According to the White House summary of a July 25, 2019, phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky, President Trump urged President Zelensky to investigate Joseph Biden as well as other matters related to "Russiagate." As pressure on Zelensky, Trump was withholding funding for weapons that had been appropriated by Congress. Asked about this quid pro quo, acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney openly admitted to it. Asked on camera about urging a foreign government to investigate a political rival, President Trump openly urged Ukraine again to investigate Biden and asked China to do so as well. Despite this open embrace of his actions, President Trump publicly suggested that whoever had made the content of his call with President Zelensky known should be killed.
On July 27, 1974, the House Committee on the Judiciary adopted an article of impeachment against then-President Richard M. Nixon accusing him of failing to comply with Congressional subpoenas. President Donald J. Trump has similarly refused to comply with subpoenas. Counsel to the President Pat A. Cipollone has written a letter stating that President Trump will not comply with subpoenas related to impeachment investigations. The Defense Department, under President Trump, has stated a similar intent to refuse to comply. Congressional attorneys have acknowledged that President Trump is obstructing the impeachment inquiry. Such obstruction is itself an impeachable offense.
In these ways, President Donald J. Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President, and subversive of constitutional government, to the prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States. Wherefore, President Donald J. Trump, by such conduct, is guilty of an impeachable offense warranting removal from office. In these and similar actions and decisions, President Donald J. Trump has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President, and subversive of constitutional government, to the prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States. Wherefore, President Donald J. Trump, by such conduct, is guilty of an impeachable offense warranting removal from office.


That is what the case is against the president is. The question is will it be proven or unproven.



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27 Jan 2020, 11:57 pm

Alan Dershowitz says quid pro quo is irelevent and is not crime or an impeachable offense.He says it's a legitimate political tactic.


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EzraS
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28 Jan 2020, 12:09 am

I believe I heard that there have been numerous times that a president has engaged in quid pro quo. Although as I understand it the defense is maintaining that a quid pro quo did not even take place according to the transcripts and Zelensky's testimony/statements.



goldfish21
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29 Jan 2020, 1:17 am

Hopefully there’s enough public pressure to get John Bolton called as a witness now vs this no witnesses no documents attempted coverup.

vermontsavant wrote:
Alan Dershowitz says quid pro quo is irelevent and is not crime or an impeachable offense.He says it's a legitimate political tactic.


He’s omitting the part where it can be a legitimate political tactic when it’s used in the best interest of the country. Whereas it’s dead wrong to abuse the power of the office for one’s own personal political gain; like trump did.


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goldfish21
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29 Jan 2020, 1:18 am

EzraS wrote:
I believe I heard that there have been numerous times that a president has engaged in quid pro quo. Although as I understand it the defense is maintaining that a quid pro quo did not even take place according to the transcripts and Zelensky's testimony/statements.


Did you See the Zelensky interview? :?

It’s Obvious that he feels pressured to say those things as he’s asked right in front of trump.


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29 Jan 2020, 2:24 am

I heard more than once while listing to the (non-rightwing) news that Zelensky made a direct statement that he was not pressured.



goldfish21
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29 Jan 2020, 8:19 am

EzraS wrote:
I heard more than once while listing to the (non-rightwing) news that Zelensky made a direct statement that he was not pressured.


It stems from that interview where trump is sitting 2 feet from him. OF COURSE he’s going to say what trump wants when his entire country’s existence is dependent on US aid so they don’t get annihilated by Russia in their ongoing war.


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