Trump wants to deport people here for medical reasons.

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EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 2:16 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I'm a Lutheran, so trust me, I
have no illusions about how flawed human nature is. But I also know we're redeemed so we can be better.
Conservatives who saw such things as what happened at Kaiser Aluminum a mile away did nothing to stop it.


It seems like you tend to paint this picture of conservatives having all the wealth and power and liberals being downtrodden plebeians under their heel.

There are way too many CEOs and tycoons who are not conservative republicans for that to be true.


I never said that. I just criticize heartless conservative business types.


Those seem to be the only kind whom exist in your mind.


Why is it so shocking Ezra that most "conservative business types" are by their nature cold hearted and mean spirited when it comes to their attitude toward the poorer/vulnerable part of society? I've worked with plenty of these types...they live up to their stereotype without much self-consciousness and the higher up the worse...

Have you ever picked up an introductory economics textbook?
https://www.econlib.org/archives/2010/0 ... onomi.html

On average human behaviour is assumed to be shockingly selfish...conservatives are the archetype


I do not believe it is exclusive to conservative republican business types or that they form a vast majority.

I am sure there is a long list of non-republican non-conservative billionaires, tycoons, CEOs, business types, along with celebrities and weathy people who have a lot of people working for them, who have had grievances made agaist them.

As I recall Bernie Sanders made a grievance agaist Jeff Bezos for not paying Amazon employees enough and then there was a grievance made agaist Sanders for not paying his staff enough.


I will say that it was hypocritical of Sanders to do that.

But, it begs the question is everyone a hypocrite at some point in their life?


Hypocrisy is not the issue. Wealthy people with employees being tight with their cash is the issue. I believe there are very many non-conservatives, liberals, democrats who fit that description.



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11 Sep 2019, 3:36 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
You know you're not the first conservative dodge my questions and will not be the last. Can you actually answer my questions please.

Let's look at the two things you said. If you believe these things are true including "Your happiness depends on your self-reliance, to take responsibility for your life, regardless of who had a hand in making it the way it is now. It’s about being the hero of your life, not the victim" then why do we need the police, the military, the justice system and laws at all if one is truthfully expected to be self-reliant and take responsibility for one's life?

If you believe and accept what you say is truth that we're all to accept then are you willing to get rid of the police, justice department, military and all laws? And, are you willing to get rid of prison and the department of corrections as well?

Everyone for himself and responsible for himself no holds bar.

Your questions introduced the idea of "fault".

Self-reliance is not about "fault"

What is your point to this interrogation?


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LoveNotHate
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11 Sep 2019, 3:40 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
If you believe and accept what you say is truth that we're all to accept then are you willing to get rid of the police, justice department, military and all laws? And, are you willing to get rid of prison and the department of corrections as well?

You're right.

Likely, knowing you can call police, results in many people NOT BEING PREPARED.

Likely, knowing you can call police, results in many people NOT BUYING A GUN.

Likely, knowing you can call police, results in many people becoming victims.

This is called a "MORAL HAZARD".


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EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 4:16 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
What should his dad or mom have done then? What could he or his mom have done to both foresee this a million miles away as you claim? How exactly should both of his parents take personal responsibility in this case?

Victims of any kind, in retrospect, should of tried to NOT BE VICTIMS.

False promise victims:
1. Stop naively believing in promises.
2. Do your best to put yourself in a self-reliant position.
3. Prepare for the worst.
4. If something really matters to you, then you should PROTECT it.

That's hardship of "individualism".

It means you take personal responsibility.

You don't play "the victim".

You saw this coming a mile away, and were prepared for it.


Ok, let me make sure I'm getting this straight.

If I'm defrauded then are you saying that it is my fault? I caused myself to be defrauded. I didn't check out the product enough? I didn't save enough? I didn't have the foresight to plan ahead well.

If someone steals from me it is my fault that person stole from me? I somehow caused myself to be stolen from?

If a woman is raped it is her fault that she was raped? She didn't take better precautions? She didn't prepare as well as she should have?

Is this what I'm to understand and accept as true?


I would say in all those cases the less careful or irresponsible someone is, the more likely they are to be victimized.

Whereas people who have the attitude of taking responsibility for themselves and being self reliant and vigilant and so on are less likely to be victimized. And less likely to need help. Especially when it comes to daily life.



cubedemon6073
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11 Sep 2019, 4:21 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
You know you're not the first conservative dodge my questions and will not be the last. Can you actually answer my questions please.

Let's look at the two things you said. If you believe these things are true including "Your happiness depends on your self-reliance, to take responsibility for your life, regardless of who had a hand in making it the way it is now. It’s about being the hero of your life, not the victim" then why do we need the police, the military, the justice system and laws at all if one is truthfully expected to be self-reliant and take responsibility for one's life?

If you believe and accept what you say is truth that we're all to accept then are you willing to get rid of the police, justice department, military and all laws? And, are you willing to get rid of prison and the department of corrections as well?

Everyone for himself and responsible for himself no holds bar.

Your questions introduced the idea of "fault".

Self-reliance is not about "fault"

What is your point to this interrogation?


Point as in my goal?



a. To show how absurd your belief system is when taken to its conclusion

b. To see if there are holes in my own belief system as well and if there are holes fix them so I can have a better understanding of our world. So, I'm not only interrogating you but myself as well.



cubedemon6073
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11 Sep 2019, 4:28 am

EzraS wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
What should his dad or mom have done then? What could he or his mom have done to both foresee this a million miles away as you claim? How exactly should both of his parents take personal responsibility in this case?

Victims of any kind, in retrospect, should of tried to NOT BE VICTIMS.

False promise victims:
1. Stop naively believing in promises.
2. Do your best to put yourself in a self-reliant position.
3. Prepare for the worst.
4. If something really matters to you, then you should PROTECT it.

That's hardship of "individualism".

It means you take personal responsibility.

You don't play "the victim".

You saw this coming a mile away, and were prepared for it.


Ok, let me make sure I'm getting this straight.

If I'm defrauded then are you saying that it is my fault? I caused myself to be defrauded. I didn't check out the product enough? I didn't save enough? I didn't have the foresight to plan ahead well.

If someone steals from me it is my fault that person stole from me? I somehow caused myself to be stolen from?

If a woman is raped it is her fault that she was raped? She didn't take better precautions? She didn't prepare as well as she should have?

Is this what I'm to understand and accept as true?


I would say in all those cases the less careful or irresponsible someone is, the more likely they are to be victimized.

Whereas people who have the attitude of taking responsibility for themselves and being self reliant and vigilant and so on are less likely to be victimized. And less likely to need help. Especially when it comes to daily life.


One can take all the precautions one wants. There is still the unexpected and the thing one never thought of or out of context problem. The problem with personal responsibility is that it assumes that one's choices always leads to one's outcomes and circumstances. And, that one knows all of what one choices are. No one is omniscient. No one has absolute awareness of all like a god. Our control is limited. It is not absolute as our society pretends it is. And, it presumes that choices are made in a vacuum. They're not. Others control what choices one has and what choices one thinks one has. So does genetics. Others make the rules, laws, set the standards, guard the doors and have the keys. So, if life is what one makes it it is also true that life is what others make it as well. Let's not forget the physical laws of our universe as well.

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.



Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 11 Sep 2019, 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 4:31 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
You know you're not the first conservative dodge my questions and will not be the last. Can you actually answer my questions please.

Let's look at the two things you said. If you believe these things are true including "Your happiness depends on your self-reliance, to take responsibility for your life, regardless of who had a hand in making it the way it is now. It’s about being the hero of your life, not the victim" then why do we need the police, the military, the justice system and laws at all if one is truthfully expected to be self-reliant and take responsibility for one's life?

If you believe and accept what you say is truth that we're all to accept then are you willing to get rid of the police, justice department, military and all laws? And, are you willing to get rid of prison and the department of corrections as well?

Everyone for himself and responsible for himself no holds bar.

Your questions introduced the idea of "fault".

Self-reliance is not about "fault"

What is your point to this interrogation?


Point as in my goal?



a. To show how absurd your belief system is when taken to its conclusion

b. To see if there are holes in my own belief system as well and if there are holes fix them so I can have a better understanding of our world. So, I'm not only interrogating you but myself as well.


So what is your own belief system then? LoveNotHate provided a concise layout, so what's yours? I would be interested in putting the two side by side and comparing them.



cubedemon6073
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11 Sep 2019, 4:41 am

EzraS wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
You know you're not the first conservative dodge my questions and will not be the last. Can you actually answer my questions please.

Let's look at the two things you said. If you believe these things are true including "Your happiness depends on your self-reliance, to take responsibility for your life, regardless of who had a hand in making it the way it is now. It’s about being the hero of your life, not the victim" then why do we need the police, the military, the justice system and laws at all if one is truthfully expected to be self-reliant and take responsibility for one's life?

If you believe and accept what you say is truth that we're all to accept then are you willing to get rid of the police, justice department, military and all laws? And, are you willing to get rid of prison and the department of corrections as well?

Everyone for himself and responsible for himself no holds bar.

Your questions introduced the idea of "fault".

Self-reliance is not about "fault"

What is your point to this interrogation?


Point as in my goal?



a. To show how absurd your belief system is when taken to its conclusion

b. To see if there are holes in my own belief system as well and if there are holes fix them so I can have a better understanding of our world. So, I'm not only interrogating you but myself as well.


So what is your own belief system then? LoveNotHate provided a concise layout, so what's yours? I would be interested in putting the two side by side and comparing them.


In a nutshell I believe that we have choice but our choices have limitations. I do believe that our choices do influence our outcomes and circumstances but I don't accept that this is absolute and I believe that other things outside of ourselves genetics influences our outcomes as well.

I don't believe that government or individualism is our answer. I believe that technology (nano-tech, wireless networking, AI,,etc), genetic engineering and understanding of the human brain is the basis to my answer.

I believe in order to fix our problems we as a society have to get to stage six of Kohlberg's level of moral development. To do this, we have to understand each other in an empathetic way. We have to know what the other person is going through and experiences on a global level. Imagine men understanding women and vice versa.

With nano-tech, genetic engineering, wireless networking I think this can be made possible. Imagine using nano-tech to be able to transmit the neuron connects of one person and transmitting them to another thereby giving one person another's experiences. I believe this is the key. This empathy network is the key to getting to the sixth stage of Kohlberg's moral reasoning. Through understanding of each other and ourselves we can come to a consensus as to how to live our lives and to live best.



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11 Sep 2019, 4:55 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful



EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 4:55 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
What should his dad or mom have done then? What could he or his mom have done to both foresee this a million miles away as you claim? How exactly should both of his parents take personal responsibility in this case?

Victims of any kind, in retrospect, should of tried to NOT BE VICTIMS.

False promise victims:
1. Stop naively believing in promises.
2. Do your best to put yourself in a self-reliant position.
3. Prepare for the worst.
4. If something really matters to you, then you should PROTECT it.

That's hardship of "individualism".

It means you take personal responsibility.

You don't play "the victim".

You saw this coming a mile away, and were prepared for it.


Ok, let me make sure I'm getting this straight.

If I'm defrauded then are you saying that it is my fault? I caused myself to be defrauded. I didn't check out the product enough? I didn't save enough? I didn't have the foresight to plan ahead well.

If someone steals from me it is my fault that person stole from me? I somehow caused myself to be stolen from?

If a woman is raped it is her fault that she was raped? She didn't take better precautions? She didn't prepare as well as she should have?

Is this what I'm to understand and accept as true?


I would say in all those cases the less careful or irresponsible someone is, the more likely they are to be victimized.

Whereas people who have the attitude of taking responsibility for themselves and being self reliant and vigilant and so on are less likely to be victimized. And less likely to need help. Especially when it comes to daily life.


One can take all the precautions one wants. There is still the unexpected and the thing one never thought of or out of context problem. The problem with personal responsibility is that it assumes that one's choices always leads to one's outcomes and circumstances. And, that one knows all of what one choices are. No one is omniscient. No one has absolute awareness of all like a god. Our control is limited. It is not absolute as our society pretends it is. And, it presumes that choices are made in a vacuum. They're not. Others control what choices one has and what choices one thinks one has. So does genetics. Others make the rules, laws, set the standards, guard the doors and have the keys. So, if life is what one makes it it is also true that life is what others make it as well. Let's not forget the physical laws of our universe as well.

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


I do not think that is an American philosophy. When someone starts out in life they are completely dependant. The need to be fed, bathed, dressed etc.

But the idea is that their parents/parent/ guardian et al is supposed to potty train them, to be able to relieve themselves by themselves instead of needing to have their diapers changed their whole lives.

Likewise they are taught to feed themselves, insted of someone putting food in their mouth for them, to bathe themselves, to dress themselves. To eventually get to school by themselves. Do their own homework. To look after themselves.

So life starts out with people being taught skills of self reliance and independence. And when they achieve all that, then they become parents and continue the cycle.

That is been how humankind has operated all over the world for thousands of years.

Now you can come up with a slew of what about this and what about that. What if the child is mentally and or physically incapable and so on. But in general and overall most of us were taught self reliance, individualism, personal responsibility, prudence, caution etc from the beginning.



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11 Sep 2019, 5:04 am

cyberdad wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful


But overall do you think one does better and has better chances in life with those qualities or without those qualities?

Have you not raised your daughter to look after herself and look out for herself to the best of her ability?



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11 Sep 2019, 5:08 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Henry Ford one could argue was a selfish business man and I think he was an anti-semite as well but the man still made to where his own employees could afford his products. They were paid a good amount of a wage so they would buy and reinvest their salary into his company. The man thought in a long term way. He was not altruistic in his business decisions but cared about his bottom line which was why he wanted his own employees to succeed and be prosperous. If they were prosperous then he was prosperous.


I think this in some ways is the one of the only virtues of a free market. Yes I am cognisant of how the business cycle requires prosperity and so the bottom line of nearly all big companies is linked to the spending power of the working class (unless of course your business portfolio is luxury cars, caviar and french wine).

However I will apply your very own words and caution there are limits to the "greed is good" ethos of big capital. I think supporters of conservative government practice "moral relativity" where they relieve their dissonance by rationalising the benefits of free market and pretend that screwing workers rights is a natural consequence of demand/supply in the labor market. I don't actually think Trump supporters believe in their hearts that he is really going to save them.



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11 Sep 2019, 5:11 am

EzraS wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:

We have both choices and limits. Conservatives concentrate on the choices part and forget about the limits part.

The whole American philosophy of individualism, personal responsibility and self-reliance over simplifies what is complex and is only part of the greater picture of things.


Quite brilliant! this is very insightful


But overall do you think one does better and has better chances in life with those qualities or without those qualities?

Have you not raised your daughter to look after herself and look out for herself to the best of her ability?


I rationalise that you have to find a middle ground Ezra. In my view democrat/labor based governments work for the majority of the population whereas republican/conservative governments advocate for a minority. But of course even a left wing government policies are subject to the free market, I am not that naive.



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11 Sep 2019, 7:34 am

In reading the last few posts, I'm just stunned that anyone feels they can depend on anyone for anything. Maybe life has suggested to you that you can depend on others, life has not suggested that to me, at all. I'm definitely an autist, but I believe my upbringing compounded my isolation/self-reliance issues.

I don't believe anyone, except God and maybe my husband (even that can be circumstantial) will be there for me.

What I foresee is that nothing, even the most basic of human needs will be provided. When I plan for the future, I plan that no needs will be met by anyone but me. So, I do foresee every contingency, in that I see I need to meet every need.

If I don't have a place to live, I will be homeless.
If don't possess insurance and I get sick, I will die.
If I don't have money, I won't eat.

It really is very simple, for me at least. Maybe some will say, "I pity you. That's so sad." But, how is it really sad if it's all I've known? It could be sad if I'd known another way, I guess. Maybe if Voc Rehab comes through, I'll feel differently. I've applied, but I'm not holding my breath.


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EzraS
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11 Sep 2019, 7:56 am

I am willing to accept government assistance, but I certainly do not feel that it is owed to me or that I am entitled to it.

And if America is so neglectful of its needy, why am I being provided for? Or am I supposed to complain that I am not getting enough?



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11 Sep 2019, 8:11 am

People who have “invisible” disabilities frequently have difficulty obtaining benefits.