York Mosque praised for offering EDL protesters tea

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cyberdad
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02 Jun 2013, 6:49 am

nessa238 wrote:

I used the term armchair warriors first and he corrected it to keyboard warriors so I raised the concept, he just commented on it

This is a clear sign that you're targetting him

If I was being targetted today it would be me you'd have attributed the reference to

I've seen it all before on forums - pack mentality

"Let's go after the Muslim who has said he isn't a Muslim but he is Indian - that's close enough so let's pretend he's a Muslim
anyway"

He actually said this:-

"I'm neither christian nor muslim, but I've grown up with both. None of them spoke of solidarity or respect to me, they lived it."

Way to go for intelligent, respectful debate!

Why shouldn't any person defend a group of people they have time for. I have no problem with Muslims who act in a peaceful, respectful manner. It's called tolerance of other people.

The IRA were/are Catholic but I don't see all Catholics as terrorist bombers

I respect people's rights to practice whatever religious worship they wish. What I (and normal people) dislike is religions that impose secular beliefs on political systems and thus social systems. Christianity used to be like this but luckily we in the west separated religion and state a few hundred years ago. The doctrine of Islam dictates that society must follow a religious law and that (must) take precedence over civil law. This belief system is in conflict with our western values. I have no problem with individuals who are muslim who object to shariah law. The problem for such individuals is they face immense pressure in their countries of origin to conform. The irony is that these same individuals who choose to escape such places then reinforce the very beliefs they puport to to be escaping and often face a conundrum as the Quran is fairly explicit to their duty as muslims.

cyberdad
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02 Jun 2013, 7:00 am

"Fard" means Compulsory. Jihad is an Individual duty (لواجب الع fard al-ayn) and is also a sufficiency duty (الواجب الكفائي‎ fard al-kifaya), for each and every Muslim. Anyone who does not participate is considered a hypocrite. There is no place for peaceful Muslims when Jihad becomes fard.

I have taken the trouble to post English translations directly out of the Quran with interpretation based on Mohammed's instructions to all believers (muslims)

God has imposed the [duty of] jihad as laid down in His Book and uttered by His Prophet's tongue. He stressed the calling [of men to fulfill] the jihad [duty] as follows:
God has brought from the believers their selves and their possessions against [the gift of] Paradise. They fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed; that is a promise binding upon God in the Torah and Gospel and the Qur'an; and who fulfills his covenant better than God? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him. That is the mightly triumph. [Quran. 9:112]

the Apostle of god (Mohammed) said:

Fight the polytheists totally as they fight you totally; and know that God is with the godfearing. [Quran. 9:36]

the Apostle of god (Mohammed) said:

Slay the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in ambush for them everywhere. But if they repent and perform the prayer and pay the zakat, then set them free. God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. [Quran. 9:5]

And Mohammed said:

Fight those who do not believe in God nor in the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Apostle have made forbidden, and who do not practice the religion of truth, of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the jizya out of hand and have been humbled. [Quran. 9:29]

the Apostle of god (Mohammed) said:
I shall continue to fight the unbelievers until they say: "There is no god but God," if they make this pronouncement they shall be secured in their blood and property, unless taken for its price, and their reward shall be given by God.

the Apostle of god (Mohammed) said:

O believers, what is the matter with you, that when it is said to you: "Go forth in the way of God," you sink down to the ground? Are you so content with this present life as to neglect the Here-after? The enjoyment of this life is little in comparison with the Hereafter. If you do not go forth, He will inflict upon you a painful punishment, and instead of you He will substitute another people; and you will not hurt Him at all, for God is powerful over everything. [Quran. 9:38-39]

the Apostle of god (Mohammed) said:

Go forth, light and heavy! Struggle in God's way with your possessions and yourselves! That is better for you, did you but know. [Quran. 9:41]

These communications mean that the jihad, and rising up in arms in particular, is obligatory for all able-bodied [believers], exempting no one, just as prayer, pilgrimage and [payment of] alms are performed, and no person is permitted to perform the duty for another, since performance by one will not fulfil the duty for another. They may also mean that the duty of [jihad] is a collective (kifaya) duty different from that of prayer: Those who perform it in the war against the polytheists will fulfill their duty and reciever the supererogatory merit, thereby preventing those who stayed behind from falling into error. But God has not put the two [categories of men] on equal footing, for He said:
Such believers who sit at home - unless they have an injury - are not the equals of those who fight in the path of God with their possessions and their selves. God has given precedence to those who fight with their possessions and their selves over those who sit at home. God has promised the best of things to both, and He has preferred those who fight over those who fit at home by [granting them] a might reward. [Quran. 4:97]

Last edited by cyberdad on 02 Jun 2013, 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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02 Jun 2013, 7:00 am

nessa238 wrote:

Isn't that a burkha?

No, it's a niqab. They're quite common in Muslim communities in the UK now, largely due to the rise of Saudi-funded Wahhabi Islam.

This is a burqa:

nessa238 wrote:

I don't like the head to foot covering - I find them scary and far too excessive

Racist.

nessa238 wrote:

I sometimes see women/a woman walking up our road wearing one and they really annoy me - it's taking women's freedom
backwards in my opinion

They are oppressive

Islamophobe. Nazi (don't mention Hajj Amin al-Husseini). Muslim hater.

...etc etc.

Tequila
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02 Jun 2013, 7:02 am

nessa238 wrote:

I bet plenty of Islamic terorists haven't read the Koran much if at all - they'd just rely on what others told them
Many terrorists seem quite stupid to me and not the type to study anything in depth

You're wrong. Very wrong.

Most Islamic terrorists in the West are actually well-off, middle-class or upper-class, have professional jobs and otherwise have good, comfortable lives. They're educated people.

Osama bin Laden wasn't poor. He had wealth beyond most people's wildest dreams.

Tequila
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02 Jun 2013, 7:05 am

nessa238 wrote:

Religion was playing a major role in it though

It provided the backdrop, yes, but the conflict in itself was not about religion (and it's even less about religion today). It was about nationalism, and ethnic and intercommunal identity.

There are 'Catholic' unionists and 'Protestant' nationalists (really, both are likely to be neither Catholic nor Protestant, but are from different ethnic communities and have different cultural identities) in Northern Ireland. I've met both.

Last edited by Tequila on 02 Jun 2013, 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

nessa238
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02 Jun 2013, 7:06 am

Tequila wrote:

nessa238 wrote:

I bet plenty of Islamic terorists haven't read the Koran much if at all - they'd just rely on what others told them
Many terrorists seem quite stupid to me and not the type to study anything in depth

Perhaps at high levels like Osama bin Laden's ie the people in charge but the footsoldiers usually look stupid to me
in their photos in the paper

I know what readers look like and they aren't

they'll read up on how to make bombs and watch the latest incitement video but reading won't be done much

that's why they need the videos and speakers - because they know these types don't find reading appealing

If you read a lot you become more intelligent and you'd become independent-minded enough to realise terrorism is no way
to make your point and also you don't accept being told what to do by other people when you're of a certain level of intelligence
- you're a free agent

hence most terrorists will be stupid non-readers - I'd put money on it

They get hyped up as if they're evil geniuses but read dialogue the police get from bugging them - they're invariably thick!

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Last edited by nessa238 on 02 Jun 2013, 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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02 Jun 2013, 7:07 am

Tequila wrote:

nessa238 wrote:

I bet plenty of Islamic terorists haven't read the Koran much if at all - they'd just rely on what others told them
Many terrorists seem quite stupid to me and not the type to study anything in depth

Indeed, many terrorists are "hafeez", men who have memorised the Quran word for word (much like the character played by Denzel Washington in the movie "Book of Eli" who memorised the bible)

nessa238
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02 Jun 2013, 7:11 am

Well I bet the Woolwich murderers haven't

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Tequila
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02 Jun 2013, 7:31 am

nessa238 wrote:

Well I bet the Woolwich murderers haven't

He mentioned Surah At-Tawbah by name.

Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

Tequila wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Sayid provided the demonic ideas and the motivation.

He also prominently features on the UKIM's syllabus.

On their Demonic syllabus.

Tequila wrote:

Wolves in sheep's clothing.

Tequila wrote:

so-called 'moderate' Muslims

There you go again.

Tequila wrote:

We don't know much of what is preached in these mosques, because no-one other than Muslims go in there.

Somebody stopping them?

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Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

cyberdad wrote:

Country of concern - Australia, although looking at the UK it gives us a taste of the future

Can you explain what you mean?

cyberdad wrote:

Imposing of Shariah on non-muslims - not directly, currently there are groups in Australia lobbying for the implementation of Shariah law pertaining to muslims in Australia. The lobbying power of muslims in Australians is quite significant and out of proportion to their respective numbers such that the prime minster's ethnic affairs portfolio hand picked a consultation group of stakeholders in the ethnic community 80% happen to be muslim!

Examples of where these legal ramifications start include i) suburb in Sydney with a predominant muslim population imposing (through coercion) dress codes on western women walking or living in the suburb when in public. This has been happening in the UK and France in residential areas such as housing commission areas where there are large concentration of muslims ii) muslim women choosing to wear hijab have the right not to take of their head covering in banks, police stations and other places where normal members of the public would be arrested iii) the imposition of halal certification on food products and food throughout Australia which I understand is subsidised by the general taxpayer even though this is only required by a tiny fraction (2%) of the population. In addition the right not have halal products when most packaged meat products have the label, many people object to the cruelty of halal slaughter iv) the imposition on councils to approve buildings that are for islamic religious purpose that obsruct views, clog road parking and create noise issues for residents v) the re zoning of residential area earmarked for public housing to be muslim only residences in order to create mini muslim only suburbs utilising both money from homebuyers plus overseas money sourced from Saudi Arabia and gulf states vi) the apparent lack of police protection or civil rights for apostates who want to leave islam or women or girls who want to leave their families vii) the apparent lack of police protection for new converts who are coerced into religious practice and spied upon and have the civil rights infringed if they are caught drinking alcohol or socialising with women (even at work).

We have this pressure from a meagre 2% of the population on the rest of the population. While the issues I have raised are not all directly a result of Shariah law

Can I assume that this part does not answer my question, so I can ignore this part?

cyberdad wrote:

the writing is certainly on the wall.

And what does the wall say?

cyberdad wrote:

Remember the issue people have is with the religion, not with the people. Civil rights of women who are forced to wear hijab and undergo circumcision is another area where Australian civil law is usurped by internal shariah law that protects arachiac and bacward practices under the guide of islam.'

This is the the most sensible thing you have said in the entire thread. I was very impressed until I saw - internal sharia law? How does that work?

cyberdad wrote:

The key to understand world domination and manifest destiny in islam is given in the Quran itself. I won't bore you with extracts or surahs but as you are familiar with islam (as am I) then you will know what I am talking about.

Nope. Unfortunately texts written centuries ago bore me to death. You're gonna have to elaborate just a little more.

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Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

cyberdad wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Islamic terrorists commit their atrocities due to a literal reading of the Quran and Hadith.

Thank you so much Tequila. You made it easy for me

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Last edited by Dhawal on 02 Jun 2013, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:30 am

cyberdad wrote:

Dhawal is trying very hard to defend islam, I find that odd for somebody who claims not to be a muslim to be so defensive. But I am not discounting the fact he may be.

It seems some clarifications are required -
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp5363504 ... t=#5363504

I am defending muslims, not islam. And no, I am not so defensive.

I defend Koreans when someone calls them dog eaters. I defend Americans when someone call them cow eaters or pig eaters.
Wanna know what I find odd? People who have never had a real talk with muslims, who have no muslim friends, who have never had lunch with them (or dinner), claim to know their deepest innermost thoughts and plans. Nice try bro, try harder next time.

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Last edited by Dhawal on 02 Jun 2013, 11:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

nessa238 wrote:

Thank you so much Nessa. You're a sweatheart!

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Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

Tequila wrote:

nessa238 wrote:

I don't like the head to foot covering - I find them scary and far too excessive

Racist.

nessa238 wrote:

I sometimes see women/a woman walking up our road wearing one and they really annoy me - it's taking women's freedom
backwards in my opinion
They are oppressive

Islamophobe. Nazi (don't mention Hajj Amin al-Husseini). Muslim hater.

Strawman dude, pure strawman.

Bad response. A better reply would be -

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Last edited by Dhawal on 02 Jun 2013, 11:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

Dhawal
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02 Jun 2013, 11:31 am

nessa238 wrote:

Well I bet the Woolwich murderers haven't

So they fired half-truths and quarter-truths at you until you were cornered. And then boom!
This is (like you mentioned before) pack mentality.

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