Men's Rights Group Claims Self-Defense Classes Are Sexist

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 12:59 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

In a matter concerning something as awful as sexual assault, yes.

Perhaps you should ask your damsel in distress if that's what she wants before just assuming she does; like I said, being treated with kid gloves on the assumption that you're delicate can come of as fairly insulting.

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31 Mar 2014, 1:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

In a matter concerning something as awful as sexual assault, yes.

(Sigh) It's just good manners not to address someone's bad fortune rudely, or disrespectfully.

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31 Mar 2014, 1:23 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

starving artist has a valid point: women who have been assaulted probably wouldn't be too comfortable rolling with men even if they were in a safe environment. I'm not sure why this is such a point of contention.

It's not, read the posts again.

Okay, so I reread the posts . . . Dox, I agree with you on two points: self-defense classes can lead to a false sense of security and going for the groin is expected and will be defended against. But I don't think women only self-defense classes are sexist. They may be ineffective, but they're not sexist.

OliveOil, I wouldn't carry a gun because it could easily be taken from me and used against me. But I'm not trained in their use, if I was, that might be different.

Billi, I think your advice is probably the best. If someone wants to learn hand-to-hand fighting, it is more practical to learn with men because they will most likely be the attackers. For myself, I'm not willing to put that much effort into preparing for something that may never happen.

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AspergianMutantt
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31 Mar 2014, 1:31 pm

At first I thought the title of this thread was "Men's Rights Group Claims Self-Defense Cases Are Sexist"
Oh well, :lol:

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Prof_Pretorius
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31 Mar 2014, 1:34 pm

AspergianMutantt wrote:

At first I thought the title of this thread was "Men's Rights Group Claims Self-Defense Cases Are Sexist"
Oh well, :lol:

It continues to amaze me that threads spiral out of control, more often than not ending up as two or three members yelling past each other.

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 4:02 pm

Ann2011 wrote:

Did I say they were sexist?

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 4:29 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

(Sigh) It's just good manners not to address someone's bad fortune rudely, or disrespectfully.

Show me where I addressed her bad fortune rudely and/or disrespectfully.

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31 Mar 2014, 4:45 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Ann2011 wrote:

Did I say they were sexist?

Not you, I was referring to the thread title.

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Kraichgauer
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31 Mar 2014, 5:01 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

(Sigh) It's just good manners not to address someone's bad fortune rudely, or disrespectfully.

Show me where I addressed her bad fortune rudely and/or disrespectfully.

The fact that you adamantly argued against her reasons for not wishing to take a coed self-defense class, and for your likening her reasons for taking an all woman's class to someone claiming to be a knife expert for having been stabbed with a knife. That last in particular seemed rather dismissive of her traumatic experience. Plus, there was the general tone you and Brock Lesnar had taken with her that seemed to be confrontational.

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 5:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

The fact that you adamantly argued against her reasons for not wishing to take a coed self-defense class,

Show me where I did that. Read carefully.

Kraichgauer wrote:

and for your likening her reasons for taking an all woman's class to someone claiming to be a knife expert for having been stabbed with a knife.

Again, this is a reading comprehension failure on your part, as my example had nothing at all to do with her reasons for preferring a women only class and everything to do with her presenting her victimization as a credential of expertise that she does not possess; "I was assaulted twice, therefore I'm an expert on women's self defense" is a exactly like my hypothetical "knife expert".

Kraichgauer wrote:

That last in particular seemed rather dismissive of her traumatic experience. Plus, there was the general tone you and Brock Lesnar had taken with her that seemed to be confrontational.

Dismissive of her experience that she threw out in an internet debate as an attempted trump card? In so far as it makes her an expert in self defense, hell yes I'm dismissive, because that's a ridiculous claim, and by attempting to bludgeon me with it she's opened that door herself. As to the tone, do you mean the same tone that she used in the thread from the beginning, and in other threads she's involved in on this forum? Sorry Bill, a history of personal trauma doe not earn someone a license to not get called on their BS from me, nor does it exempt them from having any tone they put out directed back at them. I treat everyone exactly the same, the definition of fair; you don't have a problem with fairness, do you?

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31 Mar 2014, 5:46 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

The fact that you adamantly argued against her reasons for not wishing to take a coed self-defense class,

Show me where I did that. Read carefully.

Kraichgauer wrote:

and for your likening her reasons for taking an all woman's class to someone claiming to be a knife expert for having been stabbed with a knife.

Again, this is a reading comprehension failure on your part, as my example had nothing at all to do with her reasons for preferring a women only class and everything to do with her presenting her victimization as a credential of expertise that she does not possess; "I was assaulted twice, therefore I'm an expert on women's self defense" is a exactly like my hypothetical "knife expert".

Kraichgauer wrote:

That last in particular seemed rather dismissive of her traumatic experience. Plus, there was the general tone you and Brock Lesnar had taken with her that seemed to be confrontational.

i think it's your reading comprehension that is off: i never said i was an expert on self-defense. what i said was that i likely know better what a woman who is considering taking an all-female self-defense course is concerned about than some random dude on the internet who has never been a woman and likely never been raped (otherwise i think they would have mentioned it as perhaps giving them some insight into the situation).

what i said was that a woman who has been violently assaulted is likely to be more concerned about feeling safe away from men more than how effective the course might be. for me personally, a co-ed course would have been too traumatising at first. as a survivor, i personally would like to have the option--if chose to go to a self-defense course, which i didn't--to go to one that was all-female, and i don't think among survivors i am alone in that sentiment, therefore i think the option needs to remain available to women. and that's right, i'm a SURVIVOR, not a victim. language use matters.

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31 Mar 2014, 6:04 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

The fact that you adamantly argued against her reasons for not wishing to take a coed self-defense class,

Show me where I did that. Read carefully.

Kraichgauer wrote:

and for your likening her reasons for taking an all woman's class to someone claiming to be a knife expert for having been stabbed with a knife.

Kraichgauer wrote:

That last in particular seemed rather dismissive of her traumatic experience. Plus, there was the general tone you and Brock Lesnar had taken with her that seemed to be confrontational.

I'm going to let starvingartist's articulate response stand, with the exception of saying, I seriously don't think she was using her personal trauma as license to bullsh*t. Rather, it's an explanation of her choice.

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 6:59 pm

starvingartist wrote:

Maybe you should go back and read where you threw it out, as it was after I pointed out that you and billiscool were arguing completely past each other that you invoked your history and claimed that it gave you more credibility on the subject, when the two of you weren't even talking about the same thing. As he was talking purely about effectiveness of training, when you claimed that your experience should give your opinions greater weight, you were in fact claiming greater expertise in self defense, though perhaps that's not what you meant. You don't seem to do well with context, nuance, or other people's perspectives, so I suppose that's entirely possible.

starvingartist wrote:

what i said was that a woman who has been violently assaulted is likely to be more concerned about feeling safe away from men more than how effective the course might be. for me personally, a co-ed course would have been too traumatising at first. as a survivor, i personally would like to have the option--if chose to go to a self-defense course, which i didn't--to go to one that was all-female, and i don't think among survivors i am alone in that sentiment, therefore i think the option needs to remain available to women. and that's right, i'm a SURVIVOR, not a victim. language use matters.

And that's fine, I never once argued against the existence of women only self defense courses, I only pointed out their limitations, specifically after you questioned the idea that there were drawbacks to women only classes.

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Dox47
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31 Mar 2014, 7:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Cheer-leading is so undignified, and really, articulate? Or were you being ironic and I missed it?

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starvingartist
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31 Mar 2014, 7:05 pm

starvingartist wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

maybe if you've just been forcibly raped by a man, you don't feel like heading down to your local gym to engage in violent activities with strange men!! ! DUH!!

maybe some woman want/need a safe place AWAY FROM MALES to practice how to defend themselves.

don't come on here and tell women who've survived sexual assault HOW THEY SHOULD COPE WITH THAT.

You're arguing sensitivity, he's arguing effectiveness; it's apples and oranges and neither of you is actually right or wrong since you're not actually engaging each other's arguments, just shouting past each other.

actually, as a woman who has survived sexual assault, twice, both times at the hands of males, i think my input should be given more weight on this particular topic. billiscool may know more about martial arts, but we are talking about the mindsets of women who use all-female self-defense courses, and on this subject i think i am better informed.

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31 Mar 2014, 7:06 pm

starvingartist wrote:

billiscool wrote:

starvingartist wrote:

sparring and rolling,the male partner is not seriously trying to hurt
his partner.How can you learn to defend against men,if you
only do drills against women.In Bjj rolling,a small woman can
roll against a 6'2'' 200 pound man,so,what's more practical.
doing 1 step groin kick drill,or actual sparring or rolling against
an male partner.

please try to understand that the effectiveness of the training is less important sometimes than the feeling of security to someone who has just been raped. if i had just been violently raped, it likely wouldn't make much of a difference to me if someone told me "don't do the silly all-female self-defense courses because they are less effective than other types of training that include males." i would be much more concerned about finding a safe space where i could increase my confidence in defending myself away from men. maybe that might change after some time and experience, and eventually i would be able to expand into co-ed training. survivors should have the choice of going to an all-female course if that would help them to feel safer.

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