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cyberdad
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28 Oct 2020, 5:40 am

Antrax wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Antrax wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Well there are more serious theories on why Trump is stacking the supreme court with his cronies
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-lays-plan- ... 54627.html

But these plans are yet to play out...


Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have ruled against Trump several times already. Supreme Court Justices owe no allegiance to the presidents that appointed them.

People want to complain that Mitch McConnell is a hypocrite fine. People want to complain Coney Barrett is too religious that's their prerogative. People want to lament that the conservative majority is now 6-3 instead of 5-4 because their sensibilities run in a different direction that's ok.

But people need to stop panicking. The supremes are all exceptionally qualified jurists and will rule on the law. I would be shocked if major established precedent is overturned.


The proof of the pudding is still in the eating....rather than listening to people say how great it tastes. I'll wait to see if trump is caught in a stalemate after the election and needs to call up his "Trump card" (sorry couldn't help myself :lol: )


I might be wrong, but I doubt it. People seem to not understand that the judiciary operates on a different wavelength than the other two branches. Supremes have lifetime appointments. It makes them as immune to political pressure as possible. They'll rule as they see fit and all of them are steeped in legal tradition.

9-0 decisions by the Supreme Court are more common than any other kind of ruling. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... re-common/


We shall see, politics has been more volatile than normal since 2016 as Chairman Mao once wished upon the US "May you live in interesting times" it would appear the Chinese curse finally kicked in....



Brictoria
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28 Oct 2020, 5:53 am

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
The minor detail that the "side" which has historically "gained" through the practice is now complaining about it when it works against them certainly demonstrates a high degree of hypocracy on their part, too.


Historical precedence might inform those willing to research it, but we are talking about voters who are using their guts/feelings and for around half of Americans they like what they hear from the current POTUS.

BTW just because there is a historic or legal precedence doesn't change the strategy or the POTUS or his allies in the supreme court. Her nomination was rushed hastily and we both know why Bric.


No, neither of us know why.

One of us is projecting what they would do were they one of the people involved, while I, on the other hand, have not speculated on the respective motivations or future actions of either, not having any relevent facts to support a conclusion at this time.



Tempus Fugit
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28 Oct 2020, 9:56 am

Antrax wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Antrax wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Well there are more serious theories on why Trump is stacking the supreme court with his cronies
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-lays-plan- ... 54627.html

But these plans are yet to play out...


Gorsuch and Kavanaugh have ruled against Trump several times already. Supreme Court Justices owe no allegiance to the presidents that appointed them.

People want to complain that Mitch McConnell is a hypocrite fine. People want to complain Coney Barrett is too religious that's their prerogative. People want to lament that the conservative majority is now 6-3 instead of 5-4 because their sensibilities run in a different direction that's ok.

But people need to stop panicking. The supremes are all exceptionally qualified jurists and will rule on the law. I would be shocked if major established precedent is overturned.


The proof of the pudding is still in the eating....rather than listening to people say how great it tastes. I'll wait to see if trump is caught in a stalemate after the election and needs to call up his "Trump card" (sorry couldn't help myself :lol: )


I might be wrong, but I doubt it. People seem to not understand that the judiciary operates on a different wavelength than the other two branches. Supremes have lifetime appointments. It makes them as immune to political pressure as possible. They'll rule as they see fit and all of them are steeped in legal tradition.

9-0 decisions by the Supreme Court are more common than any other kind of ruling. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... re-common/


I totally agree with that. They see a lot of presidents and other politicians come and go.



naturalplastic
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28 Oct 2020, 2:54 pm

Brictoria wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
I myself object because of the blatant hypocrisy of the GOP - they forced Obama to not appoint an SCJ just because it was his last year in office, vowed to stick to that as a precedent, and now are violating their own precedent and are fast tracking her in the last year of their party's POTUS.


Can you clarify what the issue is here:
As I understand it, the way the system was designed is that it is up to the President to nomiate a person for the position, then the senate can decide whether to process the nomination or not and so act accordingly.

Given that it doesn't appear to be the first time that a Senate had decided not to go ahead with the process for a nominee, resulting in their nomination lapsing (It has occurred at least 11 times, from what I can see), can you explain why this is so "troubling" in this particular case, given there was no precedent set?


Can you "clarify" why you cant read, AND why you also cant hear McConnell's own words? We both know that you know full well what the problem is.

The GOP refused to have hearings to nominate Obamas pick in the last year of Obama's term for the very reason that...it WAS the sitting presidents last year in office and thus an election year. Ergo the GOP set the precendent: from now on a POTUS cant fill a SCOTUS seat during an election year. Thats gonna be the rule from now on.

And right now is an election year, and right now a vacancy came up in the SCOTUS, and what does the GOP do? Not only have hearings, and fast track their party's presidents nominee to fill the vacancy. Blatantly violating the rule that the GOP set up.



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28 Oct 2020, 5:00 pm

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28 Oct 2020, 5:05 pm

That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.

Let's hope she becomes like some previous "conservative" judges----and rules with judicial temper, rather than political temper.

I'm not holding my breath, though LOL But it's not all a lost cause. Many "conservative" judges chosen by conservative Presidents have veered towards the center. Some have even become "liberals"---like John Paul Stevens, picked by Nixon.



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28 Oct 2020, 5:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.

Let's hope she becomes like some previous "conservative" judges----and rules with judicial temper, rather than political temper.

I'm not holding my breath, though LOL But it's not all a lost cause. Many "conservative" judges chosen by conservative Presidents have veered towards the center. Some have even become "liberals"---like John Paul Stevens, picked by Nixon.


Actually, JPS was appointed by Ford. David Souter is another example, appointed by Bush Sr.


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kraftiekortie
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28 Oct 2020, 5:38 pm

Ooops....sorry about that! JPS was, of course, chosen by Ford, who was a moderately conservative Republican.



cyberdad
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28 Oct 2020, 6:20 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.


Yes that's the other aspect of the process of Trump getting his way. Did he also use the senate majority to get Kavanaugh appointed as well? Brett Kavanaugh is one of the few people I can think of who is even more crazy than the POTUS (not mentioning his skeletons in the closet).



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28 Oct 2020, 6:27 pm

The "senate majority" was the THING that got both of these people in the Supreme Court.



Brictoria
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28 Oct 2020, 6:46 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.


Given that of the previous 6 times that a Justice was appointed in an election year:
One time there was a "divided government" where the Executive and Senate were under different parties. On that occasion, the Justice nominated and confirmed (Anthony Kennedy, 1988) was of the same "party selection" as the Justice they were replacing, and so would not have affected the "balance" of the court.

Of the other 5 times,when both the Executive and Senate were under the same party, using nominating party as an indication of "lean":
1 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Mahlon Pitney, 1912, 23 days nomination-confirmation)
2 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Louis Brandeis, 1916, 125 days nomination-confirmation)
3 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (John Hessin Clarke, 1916, 10 days nomination-confirmation)
4 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Benjamin N. Cardozo, 1932, 9 days nomination-confirmation)
5 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Frank Murphy, 1940, 14 days nomination-confirmation)

From this, you can see that while the Democrats have benefitted from the practice being complained about with Ms Barrett's nomination (altering the "balance" of the court) on 3 occasions in an election year, the Republicans had not done so. It is therefore hypocritical to complain about the first time in the past century where they have had the opportunity to follow Democratic party set precedence.

Similarly, of those nominated in similar circumstances (Executive and Senate under same party), 3 have been confirmed in a shorter time (2 of these were nominees likely to alter "balance" of the court), one exceeded Ms Barret by 2 days, and one by over 100, demonstrating that the timeframe involved was also not unusual.



kraftiekortie
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28 Oct 2020, 7:56 pm

All I know.....is that I hope she is more judicial than political.



cyberdad
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28 Oct 2020, 8:12 pm

Brictoria wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.


Given that of the previous 6 times that a Justice was appointed in an election year:
One time there was a "divided government" where the Executive and Senate were under different parties. On that occasion, the Justice nominated and confirmed (Anthony Kennedy, 1988) was of the same "party selection" as the Justice they were replacing, and so would not have affected the "balance" of the court.

Of the other 5 times,when both the Executive and Senate were under the same party, using nominating party as an indication of "lean":
1 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Mahlon Pitney, 1912, 23 days nomination-confirmation)
2 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Louis Brandeis, 1916, 125 days nomination-confirmation)
3 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (John Hessin Clarke, 1916, 10 days nomination-confirmation)
4 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Benjamin N. Cardozo, 1932, 9 days nomination-confirmation)
5 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Frank Murphy, 1940, 14 days nomination-confirmation)

From this, you can see that while the Democrats have benefitted from the practice being complained about with Ms Barrett's nomination (altering the "balance" of the court) on 3 occasions in an election year, the Republicans had not done so. It is therefore hypocritical to complain about the first time in the past century where they have had the opportunity to follow Democratic party set precedence.

Similarly, of those nominated in similar circumstances (Executive and Senate under same party), 3 have been confirmed in a shorter time (2 of these were nominees likely to alter "balance" of the court), one exceeded Ms Barret by 2 days, and one by over 100, demonstrating that the timeframe involved was also not unusual.


The fact the cases you raise happened 100 years ago makes their application or historical precedence to current times invalid.



Tempus Fugit
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28 Oct 2020, 8:19 pm

The revenge of Trump.



cyberdad
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28 Oct 2020, 8:21 pm

Tempus Fugit wrote:
The revenge of Trump.


Trump Avengers :lol:



Brictoria
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28 Oct 2020, 8:54 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the b***h about the Republicans having a majority in the Senate. That is the only thing that enabled them to confirm Amy Coney Barrett.


Given that of the previous 6 times that a Justice was appointed in an election year:
One time there was a "divided government" where the Executive and Senate were under different parties. On that occasion, the Justice nominated and confirmed (Anthony Kennedy, 1988) was of the same "party selection" as the Justice they were replacing, and so would not have affected the "balance" of the court.

Of the other 5 times,when both the Executive and Senate were under the same party, using nominating party as an indication of "lean":
1 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Mahlon Pitney, 1912, 23 days nomination-confirmation)
2 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Louis Brandeis, 1916, 125 days nomination-confirmation)
3 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (John Hessin Clarke, 1916, 10 days nomination-confirmation)
4 - Republican nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Benjamin N. Cardozo, 1932, 9 days nomination-confirmation)
5 - Democratic nomination replaced "Republican" nominated judge - (Frank Murphy, 1940, 14 days nomination-confirmation)

From this, you can see that while the Democrats have benefitted from the practice being complained about with Ms Barrett's nomination (altering the "balance" of the court) on 3 occasions in an election year, the Republicans had not done so. It is therefore hypocritical to complain about the first time in the past century where they have had the opportunity to follow Democratic party set precedence.

Similarly, of those nominated in similar circumstances (Executive and Senate under same party), 3 have been confirmed in a shorter time (2 of these were nominees likely to alter "balance" of the court), one exceeded Ms Barret by 2 days, and one by over 100, demonstrating that the timeframe involved was also not unusual.


The fact the cases you raise happened 100 years ago makes their application or historical precedence to current times invalid.


In what way are they "invalid"? They may be "inconvenient" (or detrimental) to what you want to happen, but the age of a precedent has no bearing on its application or validity. Given the circumstances (Same Party in power in Executive and controlling the Senate, nomination in election year) are the same, these precedents are suitable in the current circumstances.

Given that this is related to the article you previously linked (and deceitfully tried to frame a quote out of context in order to make it appear to be supporting something it was not), demonstrates its relevence, particularly as the person you quoted had included these occurrences as part of what was being discussed in the article, albeit without providing the specific details in the article which I have provided here.