Russia could use chemical weapons in Ukraine

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Misslizard
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10 Mar 2022, 5:42 pm

NATO facts.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm


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Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 5:48 pm

magz wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
There were oral agreements to cease expansion of NATO past Germany, but no formal ones. That is correct. But that still doesn't negate the fact that expanding NATO towards Russia's borders was dangerous business. Imagine if the U.S. had foreign armies and missles lined up along its border with Mexico? Do you think we wouldn't react in a similar fashion?

Nobody's hands are clean in this, unfortunately. I will never condone invasions of the type Putin has perpetrated, but full context of how we got to this dangerous place needs to be discussed.

Living next to Russia is a dangerous business and that's why East European states ask to join NATO.
If NATO didn't expand, the shelled city today would have been Warsaw, not Kiev. That's all the differrence.
The imperial narrative of Putin has been pretty consistent for many years.


Any reasonable person would admit the countries that have been violated in the past, by the Soviet Union, have a totally valid reason to be "concerned" about pootin with his imperialistic ambitions.

I'd like those who think pootin *doesn't* have territorial ambitions, to clearly state this opinion.
...and then stand in the corner and think about what they have said. :mrgreen:



magz
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10 Mar 2022, 5:50 pm

Misslizard wrote:

Actually, NATO membership is weighting against e.g. Polish direct involvement in Ukraine - because that would have stripped us of art 5.
It is a defensive alliance not only in theory - its construction discourages agression.


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r00tb33r
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10 Mar 2022, 5:51 pm

Misslizard wrote:

I like playing Civ a lot, in the original the simplistic AI would allow you to have a peace treaty while surrounding your opponent until you're ready to attack and overwhelm them. In the sequel the AI was a bit more evolved, if you tried to surround them while having a treaty one of two things would happen, either they will demand you move your units back to your nearest city (breaking the treaty and declaring war if you decline to), or they might attack first, breaking the treaty themselves. I think it's perfectly realistic for an opponent to get wise to your intensions based on your actions and position.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:53 pm

magz wrote:
You completely ignore the fundamental differences between Russia and the West: democracy and transparency.


I don't ignore them, they just don't matter in the Grand Game. All this democracy and transparency crap is just propaganda, demonisation and rationalisation. The western alliance doesn't care about these things if you are "on their side" that day. You can already think of several bloodthirsty anti-democratic and opaque regimes who are best buddies with Western countries can you not? Worse things are happening in Yemen than in Ukraine, our eternal friends the journalist-mincing Saudis are turning that country into paste. Nobody cares.

magz wrote:
They are also a state where political opposition gets poisoned to near-death and you can get 15 years in jail for talking about the war in undesired way (that includes calling it a war).


Zelenksy the hero shut down opposition TV stations only last year and imprisoned a political opponent on charges of treason. Again, nobody cares. It isn't what is really driving this division between Russia and Europe.

magz wrote:
So, why do you think Russia is isolated in Europe, again?


I stand by my analysis.


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magz
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10 Mar 2022, 5:54 pm

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
You completely ignore the fundamental differences between Russia and the West: democracy and transparency.


I don't ignore them, they just don't matter in the Grand Game. All this democracy and transparency crap is just propaganda, demonisation and rationalisation. The western alliance doesn't care about these things if you are "on their side" that day. You can already think of several bloodthirsty anti-democratic and opaque regimes who are best buddies with Western countries can you not? Worse things are happening in Yemen than in Ukraine, our eternal friends the journalist-mincing Saudis are turning that country into paste. Nobody cares.

magz wrote:
They are also a state where political opposition gets poisoned to near-death and you can get 15 years in jail for talking about the war in undesired way (that includes calling it a war).


Zelenksy the hero shut down opposition TV stations only last year and imprisoned a political opponent on charges of treason. Again, nobody cares. It isn't what is really driving this division between Russia and Europe.

magz wrote:
So, why do you think Russia is isolated in Europe, again?


I stand by my analysis.

Grand Game is sh!t. Actual human lives matter.

And no, it is not demonisation. Maybe your family haven't experienced living under different forms of government. Mine has. The difference can be worth dying so your children may have it better. Really.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:55 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
There were oral agreements to cease expansion of NATO past Germany, but no formal ones. That is correct. But that still doesn't negate the fact that expanding NATO towards Russia's borders was dangerous business. Imagine if the U.S. had foreign armies and missles lined up along its border with Mexico? Do you think we wouldn't react in a similar fashion?

Nobody's hands are clean in this, unfortunately. I will never condone invasions of the type Putin has perpetrated, but full context of how we got to this dangerous place needs to be discussed.


Isn't the problem with Russia under Putin remaining a sinister entity, rather than being a normal European country?


:chin:
Yes... 8)

If Russia had a "normal" democracy, there would not be this tension/fear.
The fact is, pootin is a dictator who uses the pretence of running a democratic country.
This dictator clearly has imperialistic ambitions, imo.



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10 Mar 2022, 5:56 pm

magz wrote:
Grand Game is sh!t. Actual human lives matter.


I agree, which is why Ukraine should have given Russia what they wanted - to remain a neutral buffer state.


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10 Mar 2022, 5:57 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
So Putin is protecting Russia from being attacked by NATO via Ukraine?


They believe so. As much as the U.S. believed its actions during the Cuban missile crisis was protecting the U.S.


What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?


pootin?
Though I have heard that pootin wanted to join NATO but was rejected.
I don't know how true this is.



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10 Mar 2022, 6:02 pm

Mikah wrote:
magz wrote:
Grand Game is sh!t. Actual human lives matter.

I agree, which is why Ukraine should have given Russia what they wanted - to remain a neutral buffer state.

"Lives matter" does not mean only that people should not die, at any price.
"Lives matter" means what these lives look like matters.

You probably have no idea of how life outside of First World looks like. No personal nor close family experience. Am I right?


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10 Mar 2022, 6:04 pm

Mikah wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
What's keeping Russia so segregated from the rest of Europe?


It's a good question. The primary answer is that the U.S. and much of Europe desires it to be so. Putin actually asked to join NATO in his early days and made noises about greater economic integration with the EU. Many Russians are enamoured with Europe and would love to be closer to it than they are. The reason Russia was denied NATO membership is the same reason European powers (often with the U.S. hissing in their ears like Gríma) have nixed or refused to even consider sort of real economic integration. It is because it would tilt the balance of power in directions many European countries and especially the U.S. would not want.

For Europe, the balance of power would shift further eastwards into a sort of German-Russian industrial superbase, such is the enormous size, material wealth and economic potential of Russia. This is an unattractive prospect for many EU member states, and even the UK, already wilting at the edges of the German economic reich EU unified market. For the U.S. geopolitically, it would shift the balance of power on the entire Eurasian continent, away from its satrapy Germany and its EU orbiters, over which it has reasonably tight control where it matters and cordial relations otherwise. There is good reason that one of the longest standing foreign policy goals of the U.S. has always been to prevent any sort of Russian-German rapprochement, because they would be a major contender for American influence across Eurasia, perhaps even leading to American isolation.

Very short version: it's that old friend, divide and conquer.


I'm sure pootin would have made conditions attached to joining NATO.
Any idea what they were?



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10 Mar 2022, 6:05 pm

/\ https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... n-his-rule


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magz
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10 Mar 2022, 6:09 pm

Misslizard wrote:

Quote:
The Labour peer recalled an early meeting with Putin, who became Russian president in 2000. “Putin said: ‘When are you going to invite us to join Nato?’ And [Robertson] said: ‘Well, we don’t invite people to join Nato, they apply to join Nato.’ And he said: ‘Well, we’re not standing in line with a lot of countries that don’t matter.’”
Yeah... that's how Putin sees us.
Well, now a "country that doesn't matter" is telling Poo Tin: иди нахуй!


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Mikah
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10 Mar 2022, 6:11 pm

Magz I'm saying the division here between Russia and Europe is not about democracy and transparency, the West gets in bed with anyone who plays ball, even the most sordid tyrannies. So the division must be something else.

magz wrote:
"Lives matter" does not mean only that people should not die, at any price.


This price in this case was very simple - don't join NATO, especially don't let the US or anyone else plant weapon systems on the border a few miles away from Moscow. That to me is a very reasonable price to pay (and a very reasonable demand from the Russians) to avoid what is happening now in Ukraine. I would have paid it.


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magz
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10 Mar 2022, 6:14 pm

And I am repeating once again: do you have any close experience of living in "Russian zone of influence" to compare it to your life in UK?
I sometimes think people in the old First World take really a lot for granted and don't realize how much can be lost. They may have no idea why some nations want to choose the West, without any conspiracy required.


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Pepe
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10 Mar 2022, 6:20 pm

magz wrote:
You completely ignore the fundamental differences between Russia and the West: democracy and transparency.
Russia did not join NATO once they learned the alliance would require to know their military systems and practices.
They are also a state where political opposition gets poisoned to near-death and you can get 15 years in jail for talking about the war in undesired way (that includes calling it a war).
They are also a state that annected territories from another states and invaded another souvereign state.

So, why do you think Russia is isolated in Europe, again?


Bingo!