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Teacher jailed for violating court order over a pronoun row

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r00tb33r
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07 Sep 2022, 6:18 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
r00tb33r wrote:
When I was a high school student in the early 2000s we weren't dealing with any of that. I've met a lot of people later in life who hated school, and my experience was unexpectedly just very "normal", we even had lunch that didn't suck. I'd hate to be in grade school now. I graduated in a class of 500+, I don't recollect a single person who had difficulty conforming to their gender. That was just not a thing.

*was not a thing that any of them told you about or were comfortable disclosing.

The rates of transgenderism in humans likely haven’t changed much at all over millennia. People being comfortable to live as their authentic selves? That’s a different story.

Our dress code was quite lenient. I don't recall a single guy who dressed like a girl. We had punks with crazy hair and studded leather, we had goths with black fingernails and everything else, we had nerds wearing capes, but no gender identity oddities.



It wasn’t about dress code. It was about familial and societal (lack of) acceptance.

Same same for “out,” gay people. Gay men older than myself put up with all kinds of homophobic abuse in high school. Young gay men today can walk down the halls hand in hand with their boyfriends.

Times change.

Do they?

Before I quit Facebook in 2017 because people won't stop bickering about politics I was quite aware what many of my former classmates were up to. With all this newfound acceptance I still did not see anything change...

I also don't recall anyone miserable back in school, someone who was denied of acceptance.



goldfish21
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07 Sep 2022, 6:23 pm

What do those old classmates have to do with today’s generation?

How do you know no one struggled with acceptance? Again; people kept those things to themselves back in the day for fear of bullying.


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r00tb33r
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07 Sep 2022, 6:41 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
What do those old classmates have to do with today’s generation?

How do you know no one struggled with acceptance? Again; people kept those things to themselves back in the day for fear of bullying.

That's another thing, most of those people came from the same middle school I went to (only for a year), it's something I wrote about before. I was bullied mercilessly (and even had to fight people off) in middle school, but in high school the bullying just switched off like a lightbulb, and everybody was pretty decent to one another, like everyone just matured and grew up overnight. Bullying was not a thing that I was seeing there. I wrote that I was still cautious about people, and it was as if they all had forgotten how they were toward me before. But yeah, strictly in terms of my experience in high school, it was just "normal".

Like I said, at age 30 I did not see any bombshell revelations about my classmates.

Of course there were news that spread around. One classmate who got a full ride tennis scholarship to go to college was busted on distribution of drugs, lost the scholarship and got kicked from the school, vented his dome with his daddy's gun after being sent home. Yeah, that happened. It was someone I had spoken with from time to time back in school, someone whom I knew, someone who was around. That has nothing to do with what this thread is about.



DW_a_mom
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07 Sep 2022, 7:08 pm

Misleading thread title.

He wasn't jailed for misgendering. He was jailed for violating what was effectively a restraining order.


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DW_a_mom
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07 Sep 2022, 7:13 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
CBS News created the title. I just pasted the article as written.

I think the main issue is if it will be commonplace in the western world that teachers must call students by whatever name and preferred pronoun children decide on, or else get suspended or fired. I know when I was a kid, we would have had a field day with that kind of power. Apparently there are 78 gender pronouns, such as: He/She — Zie, Sie, Ey, Ve, Tey, E. Him/Her — Zim, Sie, Em, Ver, Ter, Em. His/Her — Zir, Hir, Eir, Vis, Tem, Eir. His/Hers — Zis, Hirs, Eirs, Vers, Ters, Eirs etc.


Copying an obviously inappropriate title doesn't make it any better.

The main issue is that whatever dispute you may find yourself in, you don't violate court orders.

This man can get himself a job in a school that shares his religious beliefs. Teachers are in short supply; I doubt it would be that difficult. If you don't like the decisions made by the powers that be at a school where you teach, get another job. That's what most people do with they find themselves in an unresolved conflict with their boss.


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DW_a_mom
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07 Sep 2022, 7:15 pm

Hedly wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Many people would rather get fired or put in jail than bow down to the domination of a particular group/movement.

If people choose to hold onto their bigotry over their jobs or freedom then that's their choice and they deserve to lose their jobs or freedom.


Who gets to decide what the proper "groupthink " that warrants termination from your occupation?


The boss, subject to HR policies.

Every employer has a process for conflict resolution. You agree to the process when you accept employment.

It is worth noting that it doesn't seem he was fired; he was placed on administrative leave.


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kraftiekortie
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07 Sep 2022, 7:17 pm

I believe....if somebody wants to be called a certain pronoun----that I should call that person by that pronoun.

I take exception, however, when somebody gets hostile because you didn't say a person's "proper pronoun" before even being introduced to the person.



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07 Sep 2022, 7:25 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe....if somebody wants to be called a certain pronoun----that I should call that person by that pronoun.

I take exception, however, when somebody gets hostile because you didn't say a person's "proper pronoun" before even being introduced to the person.

:x

Why have you never addressed me as King goldfish?????? :P


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kraftiekortie
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07 Sep 2022, 7:27 pm

You're probably more like a Kingfisher :P



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07 Sep 2022, 7:29 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Another one! so I guess the upside of this is it filters out prejudiced teachers.

So teachers are being prejudiced for not capitulating to their students demanding they call them a new name they made up and referring to them by any one of 78 pronouns?

It will be quite interesting when 20 students must be referred to by 10 different individual pronouns.


Within the constraints of state, local and federal laws or policies, every institution gets to decide for itself how it wants to handle any of the myriad of different issues one can confront in daily life. This school, as an institution, made the decision to honor the child's choice to go by "they" and informed the instructor of the decision. The instructor, an employee bound by the rules and requests of his employer, felt that doing what his employer requested would violate his religious principals. In my profession, that would be time to find another job, but its seems this teacher pursued a different course, or how else would we arrive at administrative leave then a court order? Do employees at schools have all sorts of rights the rest of us don't? When there is a moral conflict with your employer, you find another one. That is what people do unless, of course, they WANT to create a news worthy conflict, at which point you know exactly the risks you are taking for the purpose of forwarding your chosen advocacy.

By laying a claim that his religion wouldn't allow him to recognize the use of "they," the instructor IS being prejudice. He is stating that what the student wants is, in his eyes, so morally wrong that he cannot honor it. I disagree with his interpretation of his religion, but I am actually accepting his right to it. What I don't accept is his right to stay employed in an institution that has decided such a stance goes against the chosen practices of the institution.


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07 Sep 2022, 7:34 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
You're probably more like a Kingfisher :P

Sharp eye, quick hunter, aquatic - I'll take it. 8)


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07 Sep 2022, 7:35 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
When I was a high school student in the early 2000s we weren't dealing with any of that. I've met a lot of people later in life who hated school, and my experience was unexpectedly just very "normal", we even had lunch that didn't suck. I'd hate to be in grade school now. I graduated in a class of 500+, I don't recollect a single person who had difficulty conforming to their gender. That was just not a thing.


If they existed, they just quietly either:
fell mentally ill from the strain
suffered a decline in grades due to the strain
became overly anxious
became depressed
dropped out
committed suicide

You have no way of knowing who it was or was not an issue for. Teens are very good at protecting themselves by burying their true thoughts and desires under a mask of conformity. But when they do that, it destroys them inside. I know this because it happened in my own family. Not over being trans, over something else, but I watched a student in competition for valedictorian quietly starting dropping out of school (eventually getting it together enough to test out) because they couldn't take it anymore. The harm happens whether you are aware of it or not.


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Matrix Glitch
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07 Sep 2022, 7:45 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
CBS News created the title. I just pasted the article as written.

I think the main issue is if it will be commonplace in the western world that teachers must call students by whatever name and preferred pronoun children decide on, or else get suspended or fired. I know when I was a kid, we would have had a field day with that kind of power. Apparently there are 78 gender pronouns, such as: He/She — Zie, Sie, Ey, Ve, Tey, E. Him/Her — Zim, Sie, Em, Ver, Ter, Em. His/Her — Zir, Hir, Eir, Vis, Tem, Eir. His/Hers — Zis, Hirs, Eirs, Vers, Ters, Eirs etc.


Copying an obviously inappropriate title doesn't make it any better.

The main issue is that whatever dispute you may find yourself in, you don't violate court orders.

This man can get himself a job in a school that shares his religious beliefs. Teachers are in short supply; I doubt it would be that difficult. If you don't like the decisions made by the powers that be at a school where you teach, get another job. That's what most people do with they find themselves in an unresolved conflict with their boss.

It seems like liberalism is very much against taking a stance against anything spawned by liberalism.



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07 Sep 2022, 7:46 pm

r00tb33r wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
What do those old classmates have to do with today’s generation?

How do you know no one struggled with acceptance? Again; people kept those things to themselves back in the day for fear of bullying.

That's another thing, most of those people came from the same middle school I went to (only for a year), it's something I wrote about before. I was bullied mercilessly (and even had to fight people off) in middle school, but in high school the bullying just switched off like a lightbulb, and everybody was pretty decent to one another, like everyone just matured and grew up overnight. Bullying was not a thing that I was seeing there. I wrote that I was still cautious about people, and it was as if they all had forgotten how they were toward me before. But yeah, strictly in terms of my experience in high school, it was just "normal".

Like I said, at age 30 I did not see any bombshell revelations about my classmates.

Of course there were news that spread around. One classmate who got a full ride tennis scholarship to go to college was busted on distribution of drugs, lost the scholarship and got kicked from the school, vented his dome with his daddy's gun after being sent home. Yeah, that happened. It was someone I had spoken with from time to time back in school, someone whom I knew, someone who was around. That has nothing to do with what this thread is about.


The social cycle is different for men than women, just in case you weren't aware.

I raised both a son and a daughter. I saw both developmental patterns.

For girls, bullying does not stop or improve after middle school. Girls bully using different mechanisms than boys do; I doubt you ever saw it. Doesn't mean it wasn't there.

You are naturally isolated by your own experience, but that doesn't mean things weren't happening that you had no awareness of.


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goldfish21
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07 Sep 2022, 7:48 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
CBS News created the title. I just pasted the article as written.

I think the main issue is if it will be commonplace in the western world that teachers must call students by whatever name and preferred pronoun children decide on, or else get suspended or fired. I know when I was a kid, we would have had a field day with that kind of power. Apparently there are 78 gender pronouns, such as: He/She — Zie, Sie, Ey, Ve, Tey, E. Him/Her — Zim, Sie, Em, Ver, Ter, Em. His/Her — Zir, Hir, Eir, Vis, Tem, Eir. His/Hers — Zis, Hirs, Eirs, Vers, Ters, Eirs etc.


Copying an obviously inappropriate title doesn't make it any better.

The main issue is that whatever dispute you may find yourself in, you don't violate court orders.

This man can get himself a job in a school that shares his religious beliefs. Teachers are in short supply; I doubt it would be that difficult. If you don't like the decisions made by the powers that be at a school where you teach, get another job. That's what most people do with they find themselves in an unresolved conflict with their boss.

It seems like liberalism is very much against taking a stance against anything spawned by liberalism.

So now you're equating Liberals to God?

I'm basing this on trans people being God's creations just like everything else in existence.

Stances against God are blasphemous for sure. Tsk tsk; no bueno.


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DW_a_mom
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07 Sep 2022, 7:48 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
CBS News created the title. I just pasted the article as written.

I think the main issue is if it will be commonplace in the western world that teachers must call students by whatever name and preferred pronoun children decide on, or else get suspended or fired. I know when I was a kid, we would have had a field day with that kind of power. Apparently there are 78 gender pronouns, such as: He/She — Zie, Sie, Ey, Ve, Tey, E. Him/Her — Zim, Sie, Em, Ver, Ter, Em. His/Her — Zir, Hir, Eir, Vis, Tem, Eir. His/Hers — Zis, Hirs, Eirs, Vers, Ters, Eirs etc.


Copying an obviously inappropriate title doesn't make it any better.

The main issue is that whatever dispute you may find yourself in, you don't violate court orders.

This man can get himself a job in a school that shares his religious beliefs. Teachers are in short supply; I doubt it would be that difficult. If you don't like the decisions made by the powers that be at a school where you teach, get another job. That's what most people do with they find themselves in an unresolved conflict with their boss.

It seems like liberalism is very much against taking a stance against anything spawned by liberalism.


I'm against intentionally making yourself a martyr so that people on debate boards can misrepresent your situation in furtherance of their personal objectives.


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