There's no Such Thing as a Safe Restraint.

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 7:50 pm

jelibean wrote:

slowmutant!! Ummm yes it does matter actually! And these situations should never be allowed to escalate to the point of throwing tables. Teachers must learn NOT TO SHOUT or be openly hostile to these children. They are CHILDREN. Many of them undiagnosed but on the spectrum.

There is NO excuse and no reason to restrain a child. Understanding, respect and tender loving care should prevent all of this aggression?? Which is actually FEAR. Understand these kids get scared. They need calming down, and as adults with empathy and compassion we should be able to do that much?

Don't know what you mean when you say NUCLEUR? Presume that is what you are referring a meltdown as? Answer don;t let it become that bad! Don't blame the child blame the adults!!

Cortisol floods these children and they cannot think straight, come on do your homework please! :wink:

i think respect is central to anyway you treat an AS.

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 7:54 pm

Scribbler wrote:

I'm sorry, this is going to sound awful but...

There was a kid in my primary school who had really severe AS. He'd throw tantrums and get violent and needed a classroom assistant with him every minute of the day in case he did something dangerous... everytime he was punished for doing something wrong, his parents would be in screaming about how it wasn't his fault because he had AS. From what I've heard, he's still a volatile little sh** only now he's 20.

I have AS. It's milder than the afore mentioned kid's, but it's there. I didn't know I had AS at school, so if I f**** around, there were consequences. I'm... calm, stable and generally reliable in social situations because of that.

Now obviously, I never went off it (because I knew there'd be consequences) and threw tables around the class or threatened the teacher with scissors or anything (this other kid did frequently - he lived in a consequence-free world) but if I was such a dangerous/volatile/violent/aggressive character, I would expect to be restrained. For my own and everyone else's good.

Yes, there's a line between "reasonable force" and needless cruelty, but why the hell should a kid who lobs a table across a room be left alone to do it in a consequence-free environment just because he might have ADHD or AS, as if that somehow excuses them from the norms of our society?

Bring back the f***ing cane.

I would agree that sometimes restraints are necessary, but not in the example presented in the article. The kid was restrained for gargling milk.

But people that are hurting someone do need to be resterained until they at least calm down.

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 7:55 pm

LeKiwi wrote:

jelibean wrote:

I must disagree that in some cases when children have been known to throw tables around in the classroom that they are being AGGRESSIVE???? Noooooo they are scared! It is their way of telling us to get out of their space and leave them alone.

Did you know that many meltdowns were actually epileptiform in origin? Meltdowns ARE NOT AGGRESSIVE, they are as a result of huge waves of emotion that come crashing down.

Restraint in children particularly is uneccessary and anyone resorting to it should not be working with children in my opinion. Children react badly to physical methods especially the ones with Sensory Integration disorder that cannot bear to be touched.

Restraint............................GET RID OF IT.

Well, when you have a child throwing tables in class of 20 other children and a number of teaching assistants, you kind of have no choice. Would you rather see the rest of them have legs implanted in their skulls? Because that's the alternative, and that's the reality - sorry if you disagree, but there are definitely some instances where restraint really is the only option until help arrives or the child calms down. And this child in particular is not telling anyone to get out of his space and has no sensory issues, he's being a little ratbag and saying "Give me attention I want attention", nothing more - he's as much a victim of bad parenting than anything else.

I agree, bring back the cane.

Have you ever been caned, Lekiwi?

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 7:57 pm

jelibean wrote:

Sorry but I have to agree to disagree with you. Meltdowns which is what these often are should never be allowed to get to this pitch. There are signs to watch out for. Plenty of research is available if you should want to know. It takes time to remember to SHhhhhhhh! Often it is quicker and crueler for the teacher to SHhhhhhOUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

Just take it easy with these kids. You do not know why they are melting down, try finding the cause before the fireworks go off. I never have to restrain any child and I work with a lot of them, most on the Austistic Spectrum. Tender Loving Care that is what it is all about. No excuses. :cry:

What are some of the signs you look out for?

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 8:00 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Scribbler wrote:

Well yes, it's in everybody's interest to simply avoid the situation completely, but that isn't the issue... you could still end up with a violent situation, despite your best efforts; you just never know.

It's like saying "the police should stop people from committing murder, therefore we shouldn't have a punishment for murder".

Thank you Scribbler for seconding my opinion. This has otherwise been a ridiculously one-sided debate. Why does no one even consider the teachers' point of view here?

Consequence-free evironemts are not helping anyone.

When I have my own HFA meltdowns, I often get the urge to do something violent & destructive. Like smash something. Or perform what amounts to assault on another person. But were I to indulge myself, there would be legal repercussions.

The local law enforcement may not be PC enough to understand
that whatever I do is excusable because I have autism. Who will teach these kids to be accountable for their own actions? This is a developmental milestone no one should miss. All you enablers, think it through!

Well, I agree that people should be restrained if they are actually violent.

Have you ever been restrained when you didn't need it?

Have the restraints ever cut off your ability to breathe?

These are honest questions.

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 8:07 pm

LeKiwi wrote:

Not at all. So many teachers are under so much pressure these days - headmasters find teachers who can deal with kids with special behavioural problems well, so give them the whole lot with no break time, not enough teaching assistance, and then you end up with these kids having massive meltdowns and throwing tables. Why? Because the poor teacher is busy trying to teach the other 20 or 30 children in the classroom and share his or her attention between them all, so they can all learn and grow together. Then that one problem kid feels they haven't got enough attention so throws a wobbly because they know it gets a reaction, which disrupts the rest of the class from their learning and endangers everyone else... don't you think they have to learn? So what if they have behavioural problems - they need to learn that you just can't do that. Sure, avoid the situation if you can, of course, but sometimes you can't and restraint is needed simply so as not to endanger the rest of the pupils and the teacher.

So many kids - with 'problems' or not - are such little toerags these days, no wonder society is going down the tubes. Bring back the strap and the cane and teach a bit of discipline the old-fashioned way. Sometimes it's about the best thing you could do as far as I'm concerned - you certainly never saw the problems with teenagers you have these days!! I'm 21 and I'm talking like this; now that should be saying something...

So yeah, sure, gently gently, well are you going to fund all the extra assistance and support these teachers are crying out for? Up their paychecks so they get the pay they deserve? Do all those piles of paperwork in the evenings? Fill in while they're off at courses and seminars learning how to deal with the little children sent to school unable to spell their own name or with no idea of their basic colours, unable to count to ten? Do not give teachers any stick - they have an incredibly rough deal and I seriously doubt any of the 'softly softly' crowd have much idea of the reality of teaching these days.

/RANT

And I have say that I think there is a segment of our population that hasn't learned how not to act out. That's why I hate posting on the imdb. Adults there would act out in all sorts of ways and if it offended anyone a "freedom of speech" issue came about.

If we are going to learn how to survive as a society and as people, we need a little discipline. We need CLEAR lines, though, and penalties for crossing the line on both sides.

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07 Apr 2008, 8:13 pm

sartresue wrote:

morning_after wrote:

sartresue wrote:

Restraining (dis) orders topic

I used to work in a nursing home and the use of restraints is strictly limited. Every ten minutes the restraint must be checked. This is a rigid rule because of injury and death that can result from their regulated use. Restraints are a form of abuse and neglect and are only used where there is no alternative. In the nursing home (at least in Canada) they must be ordered by a doctor or nurse practitioner and checked/signed by supervisors and staff on a form that is also a legal document. Had these procedures been closely followed, this child would not have died as a result of improper use of restraints. Better yet, rethinking the policy of using them should be imperative.

Have you ever had to use them, by chance?

Restraining measures topic

I have had to apply the restraints if the order was there. I also had the responsibility to check them and the resident per the doctor's order. Failure to do this would mean disciplinary measures, up to and including dismissal for failure of care and neglect. Many times the family wants the loved one to have a light restraint (seat belt) so the loved one will not jump out of the wheelchair. Side rails on beds are also a form of restraint. Any thing that restricts movement is considered a restraint. Even certain anti psychotic can be classified as restraints. Mentally confused people have been known to try to climb over the bed rails and suffer injury.
Sometimes the family does not want restraints, and must pay for extra staff and care to ensure the resident of the nursing home is observed. The residents pay enough money for basic care and then must shell out more for extra supervision. It is not easy being a caregiver in these circumstances. And the issue of restraints compounds this.

Would you agree with the idea that restraints used on all children should be rather light?

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morning_after
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07 Apr 2008, 8:15 pm

jelibean wrote:

Yup I am on the spectrum too. Want a medal? Ummm I think you will find as an experienced SEN teacher that the SEN code of practice recommends that reasonable steps be taken to accomodate a child with special needs! So what is wrong with moving the children into the playground away from the child who is melting down? Happens at our school.

The presence of other people watching and sometimes laughing makes matters worse. It is far easier to move 30 children into one safe area than one child who is in distress half a mile up a corridor!

If a child collapsed on the floor having a grand mal seizure you would do that so why in a meltdown should it be any different? Where is your initiative? As a teacher you should have plenty?

I have seen MY son dragged down a corridor have you? I have scraped my son up from the pavement when he went running from school so scared of the headteacher he almost got run over. Every child is someone elses child. We entrust them into your care. Please do not hurt or frighten them. I am a tough old bird who cares not about the tones of the posts I have seen on here but to some they are scary. So if your posts are scary imagine how you would appear to a child.

Children are the future, Autistics are part of that. Let us harness their autistic intelligence and show them through gentle methods the way to go. If it was your child being restrained maybe you would feel differently. But then empathy for those of us on the spectrum is a tad tricky! :cry:

What scared your kid so badly?

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07 Apr 2008, 8:17 pm

LeKiwi wrote:

I don't have a son, so no, I haven't.

But moving 30 children is disruptive - why should their learning be disrupted and made more difficult for the sake of one child seeking attention? That would be giving in to his demands, and he would just keep on going. You reward good behaviour and give praise when it's due, and if there's bad behaviour there are consequences. Throwing a tantrum and throwing furniture is extremely dangerous and disruptive, and yes, selfish. You can't interrupt the learning of another 30 children several times a day because one is being naughty. Just because you've got Aspergers doesn't mean you're incapable of learning right from wrong and reward vs punishment. And you should know the importance of routine and stability for an autistic child - hauling them all out into a playground in the middle of a lesson is going to do far more harm than good for the rest of them.

Look around at what's happening in the world today. Clearly the 'softly softly' approach hasn't worked - we've now got teenagers running around killing each other and anyone in their way, crime rates are soaring amongst youth, 11-year-olds convicted of rape and murder... see the problem here?

And first graders conspiring to murder their teacher. Did you hear about that?

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08 Apr 2008, 2:21 am

morning_after wrote:

jelibean wrote:

What are some of the signs you look out for?

Hiya morning after, I have sent you a pm which you may find helpful! THANK YOU FOR ASKING what a shame noone else thought to ask! My hat off to you morning after! At least someone has take the trouble.

All these teachers yelling that me, me meeeeeeeeeee! Oooh grow up, what about the child?? Never mind me me me!

Look out for children who become distressed in break or lunch times! Flappy arms, swingy legs, bright red faces, increased stimming, avoid of gaze.......................crikey the list goes on forever! Hope the pm helps! Anyone else need any information I will be happy to send them a pm as well?

:wink:

In response to this question
And first graders conspiring to murder their teacher. Did you hear about that?

YES I did hear about that! Anyone heard about my son who has lost a lot of his speech due to precipitated epileptic seizures caused by a HEADMASTER! You see my sons epilepsy which at the time went undiagnosed is right over his speech and language centre! SO THANKS to A TEACHER..........................................my son cannot speak well! Ooooh and whilst we are at it since all this he has now obviously changed school. The new school a secondary is FANTASTIC, could not ask for better.......................but it should not be because my son was ABUSED by a teacher.............................OH AND YES, we went to Disability Discrimination and WON!

:wink:

slowmutant
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08 Apr 2008, 6:11 am

Quote:

Well, I agree that people should be restrained if they are actually violent.

Glad we can agree on that.

Quote:

Have you ever been restrained when you didn't need it?

No.

Quote:

Have the restraints ever cut off your ability to breathe?

No.

Quote:

These are honest questions.

And I'm giving honest answers.

LeKiwi
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08 Apr 2008, 12:40 pm

morning_after wrote:

LeKiwi wrote:

jelibean wrote:

Have you ever been caned, Lekiwi?

Nope, except at a martial arts class where they get a big stick of bound bamboo and whack you with sometimes if you're flagging during endurance training, haha. I daresay I'd not have been caned at school anyway - I was far too good (no really, I was the annoying kid who always did exactly as the teacher said and didn't play up once. No lines or detentions to speak of in 14 years!).

I can think of a few people who would've benefited from it though. Several are now locked up. I've not heard of the first graders conspiring to murder, though it doesn't surprise me, as sad as that is.

As for restraint and how do you know how hard is too hard... well, I guess if you're feeling like you're bruising them or going to break an arm or they're shouting "You're hurting me!" or reacting in a way that would suggest that if they're non-verbal you'd probably have an idea. Obviously unlike the person in the original post! Restraint isn't about hurting them and anyone who does it should be a sane enough person to do that - you don't want sadists in schools. It's about keeping them and other people safe until they calm down enough to be let go of, simple. Same as you'd do with a 2 year old child throwing a tantrum in a similar manner. I'd never condone restraining someone unless they were a threat to either themselves or other people, and even then only for the shortest time possible and in the least instrusive way possible.

Jelibean - really sad to hear that about your child; how awful!! Not all teachers are horrible though, remember. There are some really lovely ones around - please don't let it tarnish your view of all of them. And I agree on the signs kids put out that they're distressed; seems logical, doesn't it?

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08 Apr 2008, 1:06 pm

Hiya LeKiwi!! Good to see you back, did you sleep well? :wink:

Oooh I don't think bad of teachers at all! I actually adore them especially the ones we have now at their secondary school. Angels in human form! Actually we have just nominated the school for the National Teaching Awards 2008 here in the UK. They have a superb SENCO and a marvellous head. So nooooooo I love teachers. I feel terribly sorry for them though!

Seems that there is no support or advice, not good expert advice. Everyone here flies by the seat of their pants. Weschler results get ignored because the professionals do not understand the scoring! Children get shunted from one place to another and then the parents get labelled as abusers or trouble makers! Grrrrrrrr, I know the system well, particularly in the UK.

Teachers are being expected to police schools, nurse, diagnose and support! That is IMPOSSIBLE. It is like asking the local train station staff to apprehend a burly man who is smoking!! Lets leave that to the experts shall we? But where are they???

I present to schools now, I teach them about what to look for, I work voluntarily and children and their parents are knocking on my door constantly because their is NOOOO support, provision or advice.

Meltdowns can be tracked back and triggers can be found. In every case I have seen so far of children getting so frightened they look aggressive and in every case we have NEVER used restraint. Often touch in a frightened overwhelmed, sensory disabled child is the worst thing you can do. It will excacerbate the situation hugely.

I am a great advocate for a Kool room in every school. A sensory room with pillows, duvets, lights, fibre optics etc..............................Kool because it is WIKED! And Kool because it gives a time of cooldown in quiet private surroundings that are SAFE.

Most children who are in a meltdown will instinctively want to RUN somewhere to be alone. By trying to pin them down and keep them somewhere they dont want to be? Excacerbation of an already redflag situation.

I stand by everything I say, restraint is NOT acceptable UNLESS someones life depends on it. For example pulling a child away from a car etc. But as I have said before meltdowns NEVER happen for no reason. Once the reason or trigger can be found BINGO!! !

My son was melting down today at school. But because they observe him they knew he was getting too FIZZY, we call it that! So they removed him from the classroom quietly and calmed him down before returning to the classroom! Job done! Soooo it can be done..........HONESTLY!!

oOOH comfort break time!! ! Back in a bit!! :wink:

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08 Apr 2008, 1:24 pm

That I did, and I really liked that post and am going to PM you just as soon as I've eaten my dinner...

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08 Apr 2008, 1:27 pm

oOOOOooh I will beat you to it LeKiwi!! pm on the way to you tooooooo!! !

Enjoy your tea! Mmmm smells great from here! Got enough for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! :wink:

morning_after
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08 Apr 2008, 4:26 pm

jelibean wrote:

morning_after wrote:

jelibean wrote:

What are some of the signs you look out for?

Makes you have to wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg

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