just curious but why is being a Muslim seen as being...

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Just the facts Mam. In the democratic west the Law is taken as the highest,

It is the Canon Law of the Roman Church.

Part of this system was the guilty paying bribes to avoid punishment, Special Despensation. All the courts were religious, till the Papist were run out, then the King took over the same law. The bribes were good. England turned Protastant when the Pope would not do what the King wanted, so he made himself Pope.

It is Religious law based on Roman Catholic tradition. They imposed it by burning millions at the stake, witches you know. They tortured people till they confessed to something they could be burned for, talking to their cat, or some other witch crime.

The last recorded witch burning was in 1799. Then there was Salem. They were only hung.

It is the way the church deals with minority points of view, or minorities.

The Scarlet Letter was religious, branding people.

Western law changes with fads, locking people up is new,

Islamic law is very old, and based on the customs and use of over a thousand years.

Chinese Law is based on Chinese history and custom, and they do not follow Catholic or Islamic Law.

Khan_Sama I would like to correct a misconception you have about America. You stated that 1% of the people were in jail. That would be 3,000,000. That is not true, 5,000,000 are in jail, and another 10,000,000 on probation or parole.

Most are doing what we call, "Life on the installment plan", in, out, in again, out again, for a total of 15,000,000 or 5% of the population.

We spend more on prisons than on all education. The more people in jail the more jobs the state can provide, and the more they can tax.

Overall we have the lowest educational levels in the industrial world, we are tied with Albania and Bulgaria.

Our University educated teachers do not understand math well enough to teach eighth grade.

Who needs those Indian numbers and Arab math?

The Catholics forbid people from reading the Bible.

The Protastants produced people who cannot read it.

I don't think you've visited these countries, have you? I frequently visit the middle east (most of my family live in UAE and KSA), the gulf countries are very well to do, there's no poverty or illiteracy. I live in a 3rd world country. 70% of my country survives on Rs 20 per day (half a dollar). 45% is illiterate. The whole country is filled with superstition, myths, diseases, ignorance. This country happens to have an 80% majority hindu population, but the situation is the same in all religious communities. Honor killings are very frequent here, two were reported last week. Both the accused were arrested. In the middle east, honor killings are very rare, and almost always prosecuted, especially in countries with Sharia law - there is no excuse for murder, it's one of the worst sins in Islam. FGM is practised only around the Nile river, specifically in Egypt. It is an ancient pagan custom, that's even practised by Egypt's Coptic Christians. It's illegal in Egypt, condemned by most Imams as sinful, with the result that it's dying. Currently, 45-50% of women in Egypt undergo FGM. Now what do the Shi'a clerical leaders of Iran have to do with honor killings that are typically common in India and Pakistan and with FGM that is common in Egypt? Egypt is secular. Pakistan has pseudo-sharia (mixture of sharia and secular law),



Sure, I've felt the same with many Arabs I've know, many Indians, many Americans, many Israelis. I never assumed that their actions represent the whole community. Why be biased? There are good and bad people in equal numbers across the globe. Ok, with Arabs, the first Arab I met was actually nice (immigration officer when I was a kid), but I later met rude Arabs as well. However, the first Americans I met were extremely rude, and acted as insufferable know-it-alls. I haven't really talked to any other American face-to-face after that, but I do know many online, and I do know that most of them are very nice people. Thus, I believe, you must not be quick to judge an entire community out of the actions of a few.



Thanks for correcting me, I originally read it in the newspaper a week back. That's created a misconception around the world that America's a country full of trigger-happy folks. Similar to the misconceptions that Americans have on Muslims.

People are going to base their opinions on what they observe. I know liberal Muslims and conservative Muslims. None of them, I hope, would ever attempt to kill me because I refuse to say "Ashhadu ana Muhammadun rasulullah."



Perhaps if I lived in Europe

a host of reasons;

1) We like Israel, and won't do anything to hinder what they want to do. Muslims don't like that, they want us to be even-handed at least.

2) What is news? People doing extremely bad things, or extremely good things. The vast majority of any religion just get by, and live their lives. Only exceptions get reported. Many in different parts of the world do believe we're all cheating on our wives, getting blissed out on drugs, there's violent crime everywhere, etc. The vast majority of us who are normal, or even dull, don't get reported on.

3) Who's actually seen a Muslim, at least in the US? What we don't know about Islam is basically...everything there is to know.

4) Among very religious people (of any persuasion), there is an overwhelming feeling that you know the truth. It's obvious, and people who don't agree with you are anywhere from stupid to dangerous. In societies that are based on religion (and don't count ours out; Utah wasn't allowed into the Union until they gave up Polygamy), the tenets of religion often get written into law (ask Southerners about 'blue laws' sometime). Over time, religion may become a personal decision, and your beliefs may be tolerated, but not questions. However, in monotheistic cultures, religion and Law can become one (see Saudi Arabia, and Iran, for various versions)

Now if you take it to the logical extreme, no only are you right, but everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong. You can talk, but if it goes far enough, they have to be 'forced' to accept your viewpoint (both Christianity [Kill them all, the Lord will know his own], and Islam has spread their faith by 'fire and sword').

Religion is also the answer to questions there are no logical answers for. If you're not getting anywhere in life, people turn to religion for answers. Some find them there, but some go a bit far in their interpretation. If you're desperate already, accepting a desperate version of your religion can make you do the things that the Harabi do.

And corruption (on all sides) has a lot to do with it. People everywhere are appalled at all the money going into the oil business, and want to see that spread around more (though in the Middle East, a lot of gas goes for under a dollar a gallon). It's being spent on palaces and showy bread and circuses, and not fixing problems.

Just give us another 6 months, we'll have a change in management, and it can only get better.

Actually, most Muslims don't like that, but around half aren't bothered, take for example the fact that the highest concentration of Muslims is in South & South-East Asia. Few Muslims here talk about international affairs. I've even met pro-Zionist Muslims, although they're quite uncommon. Yes, I do agree a slight majority of Muslims hate your government, but there are many who dream of settling down in the west for economical reasons. Not all Muslims are bothered as much as you may think.



You couldn't be more correct.



I'm sure you've seen many Muslims, 0.5% of your population is Muslim. Would you believe this guy is Muslim if you saw him walking down the street? Problem is, most Westerners believe Muslims are bearded guys with turbans and women covered all over in black. Many Sikhs are mistaken as Muslims (their faith forbids the men from cutting any hair, so they wear turbans and grow beards) for this reason. Btw, the Muslim population of America has more than doubled in the past decade.



Actually, Islam absolutely forbids forced conversions. It's an old scholarly notion popularised recently due to the pope quoting a previous pope. I won't doubt that there have been a few isolated cases, if any, however.



You couldn't be more correct. But, what do you mean by Harabi? Do you mean Harami (sinner)?



Actually, you're quite incorrect. If you visit the KSA, UAE, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, etc, you'll see that there's marvelous development. They're really amazing places. I don't recall any circuses, only skyscrapers everywhere, starbucks, mcdonalds, burger king, subway, etc etc, lol.

Hmm. I agree. And d'you know that Dubai hosts the world's tallest building? The Burj Dubai? Really quite nice...and then you have islands the palm tree resort and the world islands that's going to be built...and something else can't quite put my finger on it...anyway places like Turkey and Pakistan (not from the middle-east) are doing quite well now they are in the world's top 30 economies now.

Oh and there are a lot of Chinese immigrants in Dubai just an FYI...

Lol, Dubai looks like the most perfect city ever on the outside, in the inside, it's a paradise for crime lords. Don't consider Dubai or any other Emirate of the UAE as an example for the whole middle east, as only 20% of its population consists of citizens. It's still a lovely place though, if you're rich, and can afford to live somewhere else and drop by at your holiday home there once in a while.

I think the point of my previous posts is still being missed. The thread asks why Americans have a skewed perception of Muslims. As an American, I gave some examples from my personal life of why an ordinary American might have a bad opinion of Muslims. The reality of the situation in Muslim countries is irrelevant to my perception, because we are not talking about reality here. We are talking about perceptions, and why they may form a certain way. The fact that some Muslim countries are becoming wealthy and technically advanced has nothing to do with the question at hand. All that the average joe has to go on is news articles and personal experience, and for me at least, neither of those things has painted a pretty picture.

Intellectually, I know that I have an inaccurate perception based on a small sample of experiences, but that does nothing for my emotional response. I'm even somewhat unusual among Americans in that I've had prolonged contact with a number of Middle Eastern and North African people through my work. Sadly, as I've detailed in previous postings, those contacts have only lowered my opinions of Middle Easterners.

Because practicaly every terriorist is a Muslim. I'm not saying Muslims are terriorists but most terriorist seem to be Muslim.

Tamil Tigers?

Khan Sama, Pakled wasn't saying that literally. More as a satirical straw-man of conservative Christian beliefs. I take it that English is an acquired language for you?

Khan Sama and Stimshieme, what are your views on Israel as a State? Being a homeland for Jews, Arabs, Greeks, Russians, and whatnot, do you think it should exist or not exist? Also, what are your views on martyrdom? Does Allah take delight in violent Jihad and martyrdom or does He not take delight in such?

Israel? I think it should exist. Although I do support the Palestinians right of return. Since many Jews around the world are allowed to "come back" to Israel I think Palestinians should too, after all it was their homes that were taken 60 years ago and it's what they are angered by most. I was listening to World Have Your Say a BBC World Service show which Palestinians gave their views, they were angered by Israel because the Palestinians are now a displaced people as opposed to the Jews and have since 1948 stayed in horrible refugee camps. Since the 1.4 million arabs who out of 6 million Israelis already are Israeli citizens it has been proven that Palestinian and Israelis can live together in peace although you do have the occassional racist Jew or Palestinian. I do hope they can become allies. After all the Americans did hate the British however now their bond is closer than ever. Palestinians should not be forced to forget their culture they should be allowed to visit their homes but fooloish things such as Israels policy to not "negotiate" with "terrorists" and Hamas's lack of stopping the rockets firing outwards just stops the process. Things have become absurd.

Those who kill are sent to hell. Full stop. I always urge Muslims to look through their religion thoroughly about the stuff that goes on in the world. Suicide in all forms is forbidden and martyrdom can only be used if a person was killed for being who they are i.e. a Muslim. Killing yourself and others around you is not classified as martyrdom, it is considered murder.

On another note Jihad does not mean "holy war" it means "personal struggle" however idiots such bin Laden keep banging on about religion to gather followers as religion is a Muslims honour and by brainwashing fools they give Islam a bad name. Islam is more peaceful than what it is seen as now. And by doing research I've found what Islam's true purpose is; to guide people not blow them up. People like bin Laden use politics and hide it under the cover of Islam which is probably the biggest offence he could have done. He's nothing more than a coward who gives all good Muslims a bad name.

Really? I could have sworn the following weren't Muslim...
IRA campaigns there were about 17 of those groups
Irish National Liberation Army - UK
Irish People's Liberation Organisation - UK
Irish Republican Army - Northern Ireland
Official IRA
Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA)
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA)
Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA)
Tamil Tigers
White supremists
Christians in the US calling for apocalypse
Irgun - Israel
Lehi
Kach and Kahane Chai - Israel
Babbar Khalsa - India
International Sikh Youth Federation
Khalistan Zindabad Force - India
Aum Supreme Truth aka Aum Shinrikyo - Japan (homicidal religious cult)
Aryan Nations - United States
Charles Martel Group - France (1973-83)
The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord (CSA)
Ku Klux Klan - United States
Masada Action and Defense Movement
The Order - United States
Action Directe (AD)
Antifascist Resistance Groups October First (GRAPO) - Spain
Communist Party of Nepal (Maoist) - Nepal
Japanese Red Army aka Sekigun - Japan
Khmer Rouge - Cambodia
New People's Army - Philippines
Red Army Faction (RAF) aka Rote Armee Fraktion aka Baader-Meinhof Group - Germany
Revolutionary Organization 17 November (17N) - Greece
Revolutionary Struggle (Epanastatikos Agonas) - Greece
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) - Colombia
Shining Path (Sendero Luminoso) - Peru
Túpac Amaru Revolutionary Movement (MRTA) - Peru
Umkhonto we Sizwe - South Africa
Ulster Volunteer Force (named after the Ulster Volunteers
Loyalist Volunteer Force
Ulster Defence Association Also called the "Ulster Freedom Fighters", or UFF.
Splinter group: Red Hand Defenders
Loyalist Volunteer Force (1996-2005)
'Orange Volunteers (1998-present)
Alianza Anticomunista Argentina - Argentina
Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia - Colombia

What you said is practically racist.

Many, if not most of those groups that you listed are either defunct, extremely localized, or more like street gangs than terrorists. A tighter statement might have been "most recent anti-western terrorists have been Muslim", and it would have been fairly accurate. We are talking about Americans and why they might have a low opinion of Muslims, so groups like the IRA and Red Army Faction are irrelevant to the conversation. None of the listed groups has ever had an operating philosophy of "death to America!", though some of the communists might have had a similar slogan about western imperialism. But then again, look at the American attitude towards communists in years past, you could hardly say we are singling out Muslim terrorists for extra hatred.

Hmm do your research. These are listed officially as still being a threat to people and who in the world was talking about anti-western sentiment? So you think American Muslims are anti-western? I don't go by your classification of terrorism just by the official classsification. If you think American Muslims are terrorists that just your problem.

well I certainly stepped into that one...

I don't discuss religion with anyone at work, because it's considered potentially divisive. I'm sure I'm surrounded by Muslims; we're hiring South Asians (no, I don't know from exactly where) as fast as we can. We're even planning to let go a lot of admins and replace them with remote admins in India. In fact, if I was prejudiced (I try not to be), I'd say we're replacing everyone with South Asians (a few orientals, here and there, but mostly in R&D departments). Mainly it just makes me nervous; as my job could easily be transferred to Bangalore, or Pakistan. It's a combination of globalization (like the number of cleaning crew that aren't hispanic are there, but vastly fewer of them). I guess, as a nation, all of us are just 'too expensive' for modern business. But that's another story..

I've only talked with a Muslim (when it came up, and that in the weeks right around the Marine Barracks bombing in Lebanon...a long time ago.. once. He was fairly personable.

I'm in the middle of nowhere in NC, so what my home is surrounded by is other trailers...

The diatribes against Israel are something that 'every' Muslim is supposed to support. It's not like they're all chomping at the bit, but it's considered universal, by both sides. I'm sure there's a lot of 'yeah, yeah...now what's on TV?' attitude out there. Hardly one of the 5 pillars of wisdom.

Harabi - as I heard on the BBC once, it was what we were 'supposed' to refer to the 'jihadis' (the violent ones, anyways) as, because jihad only means struggle, and can occur on the personal level, directed at no one but one's self. Harabi is supposed (I don't know any 'clean' Arabic) to mean 'robbers', or 'criminals'.
So some jihadis are no threat, while all harabis are. And I'm sure I misspelled it...