Yemen Confronts Plight of Child Brides
For overall human history, from the times we have some records, 42 years was a life.
Marriage in early to mid teens normal, the bride going to live with the grooms family, till they could get out on their own.
Even after puberty, there is a period of adolecent sterility, so sixteen is about as early as they give birth.
With your children reaching childbearing years, you had ten years left to help out, babysit.
You would not most likely live to see your grand children marry.
42 is over a long time, often it was less. Just getting children to young adults, is all you can do if you live in a time of drought, famine, and beng alone having to make a living farming at 14 is a rough start.
Arranging a marriage where the child would have a broader support is the wise and kind thing to do.
Up to 100 years ago most lived by farming. Most places the farm land has been worked for a long time.
North America is founded on genocide, and taking other people's land, most do not do that.
Most of the world strives to live on their land, and within their means. China was long famous for feeding eleven people on a half acre. That was the best of land. What is being called child marrage was the best, they would grow up working with the group they would spend their lives with.
It is better to inheret land of your own, or to be rich, but for most, it is the differance between being part of a group with land, or being landless and alone, a begger, thief, prostitute. Then your life was sure to be short, with no chance of your children surviving.
The world over more girls than boys are born, and have a higher survival at all ages. Men die and leave widows, children, and any system will have to care for the surplus of women, one way or another.
To marry young left the family with more to feed the rest, if the husband died, the widow, her children, were with her husband's family. Where else could they survive?
Very little of the world lives in the modern west, including a lot of the modern west. Many do not have a place in life, just a job, and that is not sure.
For all the wonder of westrern culture, we are not healthy, worlds most obease, do not live as long as some others, our education is equal to Bulgaria and Romainia, and people are not happy. We lead the world in unmarried childless women, and in single mothers.
What was standard fifty years ago, high school sweethearts marrying and starting a life, is now near impossible. Food and rent are beyond their income potential. Half of all marrages last eighteen months, a new record in human history. Mostly it is economic stress. Children often grow up with several sets of parents and step parents.
We lead the world in drug use, crime, the number of people in prison. Our economy is falling, the cost of living rising, we have the lowest saving rate on earth, and the highest personal debt.
Most remaining wealth was in home equity, and we are seeing that vanish.
So taking a several generation look forward, what is their future going to be like?
Traditional cultures do have people, some are not good, but overall, they plan for generations yet to come, based on a long history of what worked.
Child brides are a problem, so are non child brides. The first, you know where she has been, she becomes a daughter of the family, and in time, it will be her home, her children, and they will care for her in her old age. If she is nine, her husband ten, they will come to terms before they have children.
Older brides have a past, their own ways, and there is more differance to overcome.
Both systems have problems. Both can be exploited. By both sexes.
Taking the purpose of marriage to be providing a support system for the next generation, those that stay together, raise the best children they can, will produce the strongest lines over hundreds of years.
In traditional systems, the core is the Family, the Clan, Community, village, Tribe, and National Governments are far away. The village plans the next generation of the village, based on the last, and many before it.
In the West, The National Government makes rules for villages and families they have never met, one rule for all classes, economic levels, and consider age as the only factor as for when to start school, work, have sex, marry, and are often ignored.
Walmart can replace twenty locally owned stores, the local factory can be bought and sent to Mexico, all with the approval of the National Government.
It is the Nanny State, that tells everyone what they can do, and takes them for everything they can.
Eighteen year old girls can marry seventy year old men for love of being a rich widow.
In other places twelve year old girls with poor parents, not much prospect in marrying in their own age bracket, all the good ones were taken before ten, will marry a fifty year old man, to become a rich widow and be able to help their family. They will eat, not be a burden on their family, have good clothes, live in a comfortable house, and most have no complaints. The other choice was becoming a prostitute.
They were part of the surplus female population, and they found a respectable place in life.
When her choices are, starve, kill herself, become a prostitute, or marry an older man, he is the lesser evil.
Before WWII very few women could support themselves in the West. In that short experiment, we have produced more single and childless women than ever existed, and more single mothers. As the economy is sheading jobs, their earning potential is declining, and they now compete directly with men in a smaller job market.
For many thousands of years couples raising children have been the main factor in civilization.
Only Islam addressed the surplus female problem, allowing several wives, if they were willing, if you could support them, and if they were young, you should be a good father to them before being a good husband.
No system is perfect, it is only as good as people, and in the case brought up here, he did not do right by her, she told her parents, and they took her back. Worse things have happened to girls.
The community supported her, she had a right to divorce him, his shameful actions are now known, he was judged by local community standards, as being a bad man, and violating a sacred trust.
It may not be your system, your economy, your religion, but it is a system that has worked for 1300 years.
Western Culture has undergone many changes, and is only a few hundred years old.
Two hundred years ago this story from a missionary would be grounds for a slave raid, for she would be much better off picking cotton on your plantation in Virginia, the private property of her Massa.
Pederasty is pederasty. Sexual knowledge of child by adult. It is just plain wrong! It amuses me in a certain bitter way how many voices defend pederasty because it happens to be swaddled protectively in this religion and this culture. Human right and human rights abuses are always the same, yeah?
No actually, it was not as simple as "she told her parents, and they took her back." When Nujood first told her mother that she was being beaten and raped, her mother told her that there was nothing she could do:
"When I heard, my heart burned for her; he wasn't supposed to sleep with her," said Nujood's mother, who asked not to be identified.
But, initially, she also told her daughter she could not help her -- that she belonged to her husband now.
Nujood is free today because she is an extraordinarily brave little girl and she took her destiny into her own hands. While visiting her parents, she ran away and managed to make her way across town to a judge:
Nujood said she made up her mind to escape from her husband, describing how on a visit to her parents' home she broke free and traveled to the central courthouse across town and demanded to speak to a judge.
"He asked me, 'What do you want?' And I said, 'I want a divorce.' And he said, 'You're married?' And I said, 'Yes,'" she recalled.
This was very unusual (which is why it's such a big story in Yemen). The vast majority of little girls in this situation just suffer in silence.
Yes, I am sure worse things have happened to 10 year olds than being beaten and raped by an adult man. Perhaps being gassed in Auschwitz was worse...that doesn't change the fact that this was horrific abuse perpetrated on a young child by a fully grown man.
No, the community did not support her. In fact Nujood still spends her time hiding indoors to escape the condemnation of those who believe she should have quietly submitted to being raped and beaten:
Now back at the family home, she said she won't go outside to play -- that all the attention bothers her. Some still condemn the young girl for speaking out, believing that she shouldn't have challenged convention.
"A lot of people in the public don't think that this is wrong or that what happened to her was abuse," Bashren said.
Far from considering his actions shameful, Nujood's community considers her husband the victim and ordered her to compensate him:
Nujood got her divorce, but based on the principles of Islamic Sharia law, her husband was compensated, not prosecuted. Nujood was ordered to pay him more than $200.
I don't think this little girl or others like her would say that the system "works". As SlowMutant said, there are principles that transcend culture or religion. One of those principles is that children should never be used for the sexual pleasure of adults. Ever.
Nujood's Story
Seriously, how f*cked up does an issue have to be that I'm agreeing with Slowmutant on something? The cultural excuse is just that, an excuse. Children lack the emotional maturity to make important decisions, this is not an opinion. Marriage should be about two people coming together of their own free will, and pre-teens don't have anything that could be called free will, even if the "marriage" was not arranged by others. The potential for abuse is obviously high, there is no benefit, and to be frank it perpetuates a lot of stereotypes to people in western countries. There is nothing wrong with a culture abandoning aspects of itself as it matures, and this is one of those aspects that ought to be abandoned in a modern world.
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ummAR
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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I was really impressed with Inventor's post: a lot of things people regularly forget these days.
There are a lot of things wrong in Nujood's story and a lot of things wrong with how it is being interpreted. First of all, "rape" is a misnomer; they were legally married. A husband is wrong and undignified to force his wife to have sex if she refuses, and if she refuses, she will be wrong because it is his right, but all of that is unclear from the story because the mother also said that they sent Nujood to live with the husband's family, not to consummate the marriage, and that's not right either. A girl whose marriage has been contracted should stay in her family home until it is time to consummate the marriage. There's a lot more going on here than anyone unfamiliar with Islam would understand. "Rape" is just a loaded word to further the agenda and avoid understanding the details. As far as compensation goes, that is because she was probably given the $200 as mahr when she got married and because she ran away, she would have to give it back. I've experienced it; it's not a big deal. The whole story should have been stopped much earlier and her parents were ignorant and wrong if they did not respect her refusal before marrying her off and for ignoring her complaints early into the marriage, but this has nothing to do with her age. The same thing could happen to someone much older. This is something that can be handled within Islamic law and we don't need your America, et al. judgments, thank you very much. Police your own territory.
For those who are actually interested in furthering their understanding, here are two hadith (sayings of the Prophet (saws)) from Bulugh al-Maram, a basic fiqh text that will give an indication of the mechanism one poster was asking about before--and yes, a girl of this age has the ability to consent:
Narrated Abu Hurairah (raa), "Allah's Messenger (saws) said, 'A woman without a husband (ayyim) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her consent is asked.' They asked, 'O Allah's Messenger, how is her consent indicated?' He replied, 'It is by her silence.'" [Agreed upon: this means it is from the two most authentic collections of hadith, the sayings and actions of the Prophet (saws)]
Narrated Ibn `Abbas (raa), "A virgin girl came to the Prophet (saws) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so Allah's Messenger (saws) allowed her to exercise her choice.[1] [Reported by Ahmad, Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah, but it was found defective for being mursal]
In the footnote to the second one, taken from the book, Subul al-Salam, by Muhammad ibn Isma`il al-Sanani, it says:
"It means that without the consent of the woman, virgin or ayyim, she cannot be married. If she is married without her consent, she has the right to cancel it or keep it, even if this marriage was arranged by her father or brother."
The word, "mursal," in the classing of the second hadith means that it did not authentically connect to the Prophet, which means that it was the saying of either one of his companions or one of their students, yet it is still a high level of legitimate proof on the issue, for the words of the Prophet (saws) are understood in light of the practice of his direct followers.
Although it seemed strange to me at first that silence would be an acceptable form of consent, this indicates her shyness in expressing her desire, especially to her father, who would generally be the one to ask her permission. If she rejects the proposal, it would be less embarrassing to say so. It is her right to be taught this issue and, if she is not, the blame falls to the family and then to the community, or to whatever forces are preventing this information from being known. It appears that Nujood was not silent and it was lack of respect for her refusal that is the issue here.
My heart goes out to the girls mentioned in the articles. They are my sisters and it appears that they were abused; may Allah vindicate them, allow them to heal and bless them from His Mercy. However, it is not necessarily because they were married young. If the father in the article was a villain, he and the mother would not have been talking to the press. Yemen is a country of strong tradition, some of which is from Islam and some of which is not. Any judgments beyond that are of no consequence to us.
From the story:
Nujood Ali is 10 years old...a husband three times her age routinely beat and raped her.
I didn't want to sleep with him, but he forced me to. He hit me, insulted me.
Nujood made it clear that she did not want to sleep with him and this adult man used his greater physical strength to overpower her and force himself on her. That is the definition of rape. This 30 year old forced a 10 year old child to have sex. Imagine her pain and fear...imagine what it felt like when her little body was forcibly penetrated by an adult man..."legally married" or not, what happened to her was rape.
There's something wrong with many marriages. Everything is wrong when it comes to a forced marriage.
If it was a forced marriage, it's fairly obvious that the husband will force her into submission. The situation will be no different if they were both adults of the same age. Forced marriage is forced marriage. That's the evil in third world societies. Not child marriage.
Doesn't it outrage you? You seem to be apologizing for it.
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Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Jael: That is your definition of "rape". I would call it "abuse" and it is totally wrong; but "rape" is a loaded word.
The only reason I can think of to excuse the authorities for not punishing him is that abuse is very hard to prove. That's why it's the parent's responsibility to follow up, advise and exert their influence if their daughter is complaining about her husband, and they should take her complaints seriously. They are supposed to screen his knowledge and character before marriage and serve as negotiators thereafter. They are supposed to be building a family, not selling their daughter to the circus. Maybe they were intimidated by him because he was rich and they were poor. This is maybe one of the wisdoms behind the fact that one should marry his equal [in terms of background, culture, social status, etc.]. I always saw this principle as somewhat elitist and isolationist, but maybe it's also a protection from another angle against just this kind of imbalance and abuse of power.
The example of the Prophet (saws) on how a husband should react if his bride shows she does not want him can be seen from the story of Asma' bint Ka`b al-Jawniyah who, when he (saws) approached her after they were married, said, "I ask Allah to protect me from you." He replied, saying, "You have indeed sought protection from the Great One: Go back to your family." And she got what she wanted: she was divorced. This is mentioned in Bukhari, Ibn Majah and others.
If a woman cannot bear to be intimate with her husband, she may seek a divorce, and when divorce is initiated by the women, it is called khula` (not talaq) and it requires compensation in exchange for the mahr he gave her at marriage, which in many cases hasn't even been spent yet because it is often kept as a kind of insurance.
Doesn't it outrage you? You seem to be apologizing for it.
It does outrage me. How much do I need to point out that domestic violence is a problem globally, and has no age barriers? And why should I apologize for those actions? lol!
You can read about the problem here.
Oh, btw, it doesn't just effect women. My uncle is also a victim of domestic violence. My aunt beat him up with a sweeper, threw him out of the house, and donated all his clothes to the mosque (she thinks he's sleeping with some old lady)!
Last edited by Khan_Sama on 25 Aug 2008, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Generally, it's a few seconds long. The husband recites Talaq three times, and it is done. He's supposed to monetarily support his ex-wife until she gets re-married.
In India, Muslim domestic law is autonomous. While reciting Talaq is a must, a signed document is also necessary. My parents called a maulvi, and a few relatives. My father agreed to supporting her until she gets re-married, and both parties signed the document after he recited Talaq. The whole procedure took less than half an hour. There are no Sharia courts here. The autonomous laws only relate to marriage, divorce, inheritance, etc, and any other problem must be addressed in the civil or criminal courts. In countries like Malaysia, there are civil courts as well as Shariah courts, and there's a lot of confrontation between both courts.
ummAR
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
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Actually there are different types of divorce for different reasons and lots of rules and restrictions to encourage people to take it seriously and to take their time in the decision-making process. Divorce is highly discouraged because of all the negative effects on the family and because marriage is huge investment, emotionally, financially, logistically, etc. and it is never wise to be hasty. When I said, "it's not a big deal," I was referring to the money. I see how I could have been misunderstood. Compared to everything else invested, it's really not that big a deal.
Divorce in Islam does not have to be witnessed and it does not have to be written, so it sounds deceptively simple, but three times is the limit, so that it can't be played with.
