[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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19 Oct 2023, 5:44 pm

I'm not sure why people need to be entirely on one side or the other. We are all human beings. Speaking personally, I don't trust anyone who is involved in this situation because they all suck. Based on past behavior, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel bombed the hospital, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. Hoaxes and faked evidence seem to have been the norm for this particular conflict. Ultimately, it doesn't matter that much because nobody involved is remotely innocent at this point anyway. They've all committed war crimes.

I care about the innocent people who are dying and suffering - both the Palestinians and Israelis. It's so horrifying it's impossible for me to even imagine.

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19 Oct 2023, 5:51 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

My bias is that I am Jewish and as mentioned in another thread feel that if Israel is not a Jewish state a version of what happened in southern Israel will happen in all of Israel.

A lot would depend on how the state is structured. I would be very interested in your comments on my post here.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Here in America it will embolden anti semites and hurt Jewish confidence/pride.

The extent to which this would happen would depend a lot on the particulars of what replaces the Jewish state, it seems to me.

On the other hand, it seems to me that the current status quo already emboldens anti-Jewish bigots and will continue to do so. As long as Israel still exists in its current form, justified criticisms of Israeli government policies will still be used as excuses for anti-Jewish bigotry, and U.S. support for Israel will continue to be used as fodder for anti-Jewish conspiracy theories -- even though the biggest base of support for Israel, here in the U.S.A., is not Jews but the many more numerous evangelical Christian believers in premillenial dispensationalism. (Premillenial dispensationalists were Zionists long before Zionism became popular among Jews.)

And Zionists can be anti-Jewish bigots too. I would hazard a guess that there are at least a few folks in the Bible Belt with the attitude that Jews belong in Israel but not here in the U.S.A.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I do not feel anti zionism is the same thing as anti semitism but do feel that so much anti zionism is open or coded anti semitism that I do often get suspicious.

It is certainly understandable that you would get suspicious.

(As for your "anti-wokeness" analogy, I've addressed that in a separate thread, not addressed to you personally. Feel free to ignore it if you wish.)

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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 19 Oct 2023, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Oct 2023, 5:54 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Agreed.

IMO, we need to encourage everyone to think seriously about possible longterm solutions. (See this thread, especially this post.)

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 19 Oct 2023, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Oct 2023, 6:03 pm

https://youtu.be/4idQbwsvtUo?si=-lEenWSmc2j_g-SQ

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19 Oct 2023, 7:52 pm

Recidivist wrote:

Are you aiming that comment at me?

I don't know, are you engaging in selective demands for rigor in this thread?

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19 Oct 2023, 7:53 pm

Patrick22348 wrote:

Why in gods almighty name would we believe in Israel? Frankly I don't care about Palestians dying but my god, i would never believe in what Israel says, especially when they are blowing people into minced meat.

You seem confused.

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19 Oct 2023, 8:25 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Recidivist wrote:

Are you aiming that comment at me?

I don't know, are you engaging in selective demands for rigor in this thread?

I don't think I have demanded anything from anyone in this thread. Being autistic can make me inflexible in my opinion though, no muggle is going to change my mind when it's made up.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:17 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Israel is a liberal democracy who follow the rule of law and held to a higher level of moral/ethical conduct. They are forced to abide normal conventions and as such all liberal democracies (including yours) support their right to make their land safe.

The contrast here is that HAMAS are a terrorist organisation who use their own people as human shields and murder innocent civilians for no reason/provocation. Despite their doing whatever they want to their own people or to Israeli civilians there is a reluctance to call them out for what they are. Their sole objective as with Fatah and the PLO before them is the eradication of Israel.
You can't negotiate or make peace with such groups who are representing the Gaza population.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:31 pm

cyberdad wrote:

...as with Fatah and the PLO before them is the eradication of Israel...

You should be aware that the PLO was a signatory to the Oslo Accords.

Quote:

The Oslo process began after secret negotiations in Oslo, Norway, resulting in both the recognition of Israel by the PLO and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in bilateral negotiations.

Fatah also predates the PLO, they joined the PLO in 1967.

Fatah recognizes Israel's right to exist up until the present:

Quote:

Unlike Hamas, Fatah recognizes Israel and wants to build a two-state solution along the borders established after the 1967 Six-Day War. This would define the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem as Palestine.

I'm not sure if you know what you said isn't true, but now you know.

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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:32 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I'm not sure why people need to be entirely on one side or the other.

I don't think anyone is saying that, what I'm saying is that people are showing their biases even when their words are different, such as demanding differing levels of proof before accepting reported facts while claiming neutrality.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:50 pm

cyberdad wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

They can strive to make their land safe, but I will never condone war crimes, such as the use of chemical weapons, targeting civilians/genocide for ANY reason.

Quote:

The contrast here is that HAMAS are a terrorist organisation who use their own people as human shields and murder innocent civilians for no reason/provocation. Despite their doing whatever they want to their own people or to Israeli civilians there is a reluctance to call them out for what they are.

Who on here has not called Hamas out for their actions? I've not seen that.

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19 Oct 2023, 9:54 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Who on here has not called Hamas out for their actions? I've not seen that.

I've noted a general lean-in toward sympathy for Hamas on this website. I have none, however.

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19 Oct 2023, 10:02 pm

Fnord wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Who on here has not called Hamas out for their actions? I've not seen that.

I've noted a general lean-in toward sympathy for Hamas on this website. I have none, however.

I'm relieved to hear it.

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19 Oct 2023, 11:54 pm

Dox47 wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

From what I’ve seen, some individuals struggle with the concept of the oppressed becoming the oppressor.

The more salient struggle I see going on currently is people sort of short circuiting when those they've deemed "oppressed" do something actually repugnant, and they can't bring themselves to condemn acts that are objectively evil. The response to the deliberate and gleeful butchery of civilians shouldn't be to first consult the progressive stack to see who is the most aggrieved, it ought to be immediate denunciation of the responsible party, without making a bunch of caveats and excuses.

"There are no bad tactics, only bad targets" is a recipe for reciprocating atrocities, as everyone thinks their own goals and values are good and noble, some acts need to be placed beyond the pale.

This post make very much sense to me ..!

..^^^^^

Still hiding your fighters amongst civilian population , makes Israels , whacka mole miltary, Look pretty bad .
But still wonder , whose idea to start this War up ... and keep it going .. Hamas has such poor , but strategic
minor guerillas that are working in a populated area..People are going to get hurt ( get killed).And nothing for all those pikkies of Israeli tanks to do battle with ? :evil:

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20 Oct 2023, 12:44 am

cyberdad
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20 Oct 2023, 2:21 am

funeralxempire wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

...as with Fatah and the PLO before them is the eradication of Israel...

You should be aware that the PLO was a signatory to the Oslo Accords..

It wasn't till 1996, the PLO nullified the articles of the PLO's Charter, or parts of it, which called for the destruction of Israel and for armed resistance. This actually had more to do with Yasser Arafat converting to christianity than to do with the will of the PLO

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