[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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21 Oct 2023, 9:20 pm

cyberdad wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
What makes you "sure" that they would avoid civilian casualties if they could? That sounds like personal bias. I'm not "sure" about that regarding any government.


Liberal democracies abide the rule of law which means they need to avoid civilian casualties.
But they so often don't, sadly. Israel certainly hasn't which is why organizations such as the UN have spoken out about their behavior.

Quote:
Almost all the middle eastern countries that surround the state of Israel are non-democratic authoritarian regimes who regularly engage human rights violations (some of the worst offenders are playgrounds for the rich and famous from America and Europe like Dubai).
Just because some groups/some countries defy international humanitarian laws by targeting civilians and engaging in war crimes doesn't make it okay for others to do it. It's always wrong.



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21 Oct 2023, 10:26 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Just because some groups/some countries defy international humanitarian laws by targeting civilians and engaging in war crimes doesn't make it okay for others to do it. It's always wrong.


Honestly Israel is doing nothing different to the US when they launched their "war on terror" following 9-11
If you had relatives or family being held has hostage in Gaza you would want the IDF to get them out,

I was watching a video (which I will not share because it is triggering) where HAMAS filmed themselves shooting young people fleeing the Israeli music festival. The sheer joy in their faces while they were killing innocents is what awaits Israel if they go down the path of trying to negotiate with these groups to bargain for the lives of those taken hostage, We have seen the outcome of that practice in Mexico where paying off drug cartels who routinely abduct US citizens or Somali pirates who abduct foreigners. Paying them off only emboldens them, Both Somalia and Mexico are virtually run by militia groups or cartels involved in illegal activities.

However you try and spin human rights, Israel has just as much right as the US to pursue those who have continuously inflicted unprovoked attacks on their civilian population since the inception of Israel in 1948.



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21 Oct 2023, 10:39 pm

In a whispered sounding voiceFollow the Money : :shameonyou:


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21 Oct 2023, 10:56 pm

^^ :|

I've already mentioned several times in this thread that I was strongly opposed to the US's "war on terror." It killed a lot of innocent people and caused many problems overall. The US has made lots of sh***y choices, especially when it comes to warfare. Just because I'm from America does not mean that I approve of everything my government does.

Even if I had lost family members in a terrorist attack, I would not want innocent people, including children to die. That would go against my personal moral code. I don't think this is the only way or the best way to get hostages back. Wanting to free 210 hostages does NOT justify killing thousands of people although, granted, the conflict is more complex than that. The situation you referenced from Mexico is by no means equivalent to this one.

Palestinian civilians, 47.3% of whom are children, had nothing to do with Hamas's brutality, no matter how extreme and evil it was. I will never endorse Israel's current actions or some of their sh***y behavior in the past, just like I don't always endorse the behavior of governments in many other locales, including my own.



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21 Oct 2023, 11:49 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
In a land as small as the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank, I doubt it's possible to dig a tunnel under someone's house all the way to Israel and claim the people living on top of the tunnels have no knowledge of it. The Palestinians know what HAMAS is up to, they may not shoot the rockets or cut the fences, but they celebrate.

Your evidence that most of the civilian population of Gaza was ever "celebrating" the recent attacks?

EDIT: Googling to try to research the above claim myself, so far I've found nothing about Gaza civilians allegedly "celebrating" the attack.

But I did find an article on the ADL site claiming (about various people OUTSIDE OF Gaza) Anti-Israel Activists Celebrate Hamas Attacks that Have Killed Hundreds of Israelis. I strongly suspect that even this claim is an exaggeration at best, but I will look into it a little further.

I would expect that the only people "celebrating" would have been Hamas themselves and similarly extremist groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah, plus folks in the Iranian government. I would expect most people in Gaza, and most other people with any concern about the well-being of Palestinians, to have been terrified, knowing how Israel would likely respond.


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22 Oct 2023, 3:44 am

Do you know the history of the Italian massacres?

And not only?

I will bring you the regime data which are official.

You would be terrified.

That's why I wrote that there are neither good nor bad, neither just nor unjust.

*Wars are geopolitical.

They all have a common thread that is not obvious, but the wars are not unrelated to each other.

Don't make this mistake, because it is the basis for understanding.

*Many Nations ,were and are dictatorial because the populations must be controlled and stopped where they are.

Look at the recent story too and you'll see.

Democracies there involve wars between dozens of different factions.

We don't even know who's in charge.

In any case: if a state is in very serious danger it is Israel, because if the conflict spreads, nations with strong military, political and economic weight will intervene.

There will be two phases:
1) They will win their battles

2) The second will lead them to wars against many nations (China and Russia and perhaps Turkey included).

Who will win in this?

They are still using them.

That's why I was trying to get the message of peace agreements across.

Africa is the control of resources and the entire Middle East is at stake and not a war between Israel and the Palestinian and neighboring populations.

Many focus attention on Hamas.

It shouldn't be concentrated there.

But on the whole of the geopolitical asset if anything.

(People see the finger and not the moon)


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Last edited by Huckleberry Finn on 22 Oct 2023, 4:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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22 Oct 2023, 3:57 am

Huckleberry Finn wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
[So Britain and France carved up the middle East between themselves. And did so with little regard for the ethnic groups in the region. Lumping together hostile groups into one unit, and also splitting up the same group among different nations (notably the Kurds). So you ended up with a bunch of jury-rigged dysfunctional nations slapped together with duct tape (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, are all good examples).

And that was even BEFORE you add Zionism to the mix. The creation of the Jewish state out of Palestine added even more spice to the cocktail.


In 1945 there was collective guilt by the UK and the USA for erecting barriers to prevent Jewish refugees to leave Germany and enter their countries. Many millions of Jews were left to dogs to fend for themselves with the Nazis.

The British already had committed themselves after WWI in 1917 through the Balfour declaration to set up a Jewish state in Palestine. Jewish militant groups were already attacking British troops in Palestine (which was a British protectorate) in the late 1940s so that also gave the Brits an incentive to leave Palestine.

While many blame Britain for the problems of setting up the state of Israel, in many ways they had no choice but to deliver what they promised to Jewish people way back in 1917 as otherwise the European Jewish diaspora who survived the war would want to enter the UK and US (and probably Australia, Canada, South Africa and other Anglo-sphere countries).



We Italians have exterminated them, you see!

The racial laws were already there

Do you know what happened?

We loaded them into wagons like livestock wagons.


Then they took them to Germany to concentration camps.

The end was horrendous.

The first devastating.

Sorry why don't you mention Italy in this?


We have totally excluded hundreds of thousands of Jews from social life... are we special?

Another thing: we (Italy) should have been there at the Nuremberg trial too.

Great Britain wanted it that way.

The USA objected for logical reasons as to who was NOT guilty of so many mass killings.

Do you know what we did in the African Hills?

We exterminated the populations with gas and bombed them with planes.
We raped and set fire to everything with flamethrowers.

We wanted to bacteriologically pollute their waters.

Then the government said no because we had to occupy them later.

But we have committed crazy crimes in Greece, Slovenia and other countries.

We're not that much better.

But you don't mention them...sorry why are we missing from your list?

<>
The Holocaust in Italy

At the 1938 census there were more than 47,000 Italian Jews present in Italy, just over the
0.1% of the population reached 45 million, as well as 10,000 Jews of foreign nationality.


The racial laws introduced starting in 1938 forced many Jews to leave the country
vo


untarily (at least six thousand emigrated), others were deported to concentration camps
in Italy and abroad (over 6,000).

In the space of a few weeks, around 200 teachers, 400 public employees, 500
private employees, 150 soldiers and 2,500 professionals, also 200 university students, 1000 of the
secondary schools and 4,400 elementary schools were forced to leave the study.
At the fall of fascism, there were 37,000 Jews left in Italy and 7,000 foreign Jews1
.
The toll from racial persecution alone was heavy: 7,579 Jews were identified
arrested, of which 6,806 were deported to extermination Italians camps, from which only 837 returned.
1 6806 arrested and deported


of which:
5,969 deaths
837 survivors
2 Arrested and dead in Italy 322 *
3 Arrested and escaped in Italy 451 **
Total identified 7,579
*of them 42 were not actually arrested: they committed suicide or were killed while evading arrest or
they died from serious hardship or deprivation
**indicative number. It is not possible at the moment to draw up complete tables. These are escapees, freed people or others
cases.
Source CDEC, for further information:


The census data are taken from Susan Zuccotti, L'olocaust in Italia, Tea Storico, 1995, in turn cited by Renzo
De Felice, History of Italian Jews under Fascism, Einaudi, Turin, 1972


Italy switched sides before the war ended, so I guess the Allies were content to see them as reformed good guys.


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Huckleberry Finn
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22 Oct 2023, 4:18 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Huckleberry Finn wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
[So Britain and France carved up the middle East between themselves. And did so with little regard for the ethnic groups in the region. Lumping together hostile groups into one unit, and also splitting up the same group among different nations (notably the Kurds). So you ended up with a bunch of jury-rigged dysfunctional nations slapped together with duct tape (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, are all good examples).

And that was even BEFORE you add Zionism to the mix. The creation of the Jewish state out of Palestine added even more spice to the cocktail.


In 1945 there was collective guilt by the UK and the USA for erecting barriers to prevent Jewish refugees to leave Germany and enter their countries. Many millions of Jews were left to dogs to fend for themselves with the Nazis.

The British already had committed themselves after WWI in 1917 through the Balfour declaration to set up a Jewish state in Palestine. Jewish militant groups were already attacking British troops in Palestine (which was a British protectorate) in the late 1940s so that also gave the Brits an incentive to leave Palestine.

While many blame Britain for the problems of setting up the state of Israel, in many ways they had no choice but to deliver what they promised to Jewish people way back in 1917 as otherwise the European Jewish diaspora who survived the war would want to enter the UK and US (and probably Australia, Canada, South Africa and other Anglo-sphere countries).



We Italians have exterminated them, you see!

The racial laws were already there

Do you know what happened?

We loaded them into wagons like livestock wagons.


Then they took them to Germany to concentration camps.

The end was horrendous.

The first devastating.

Sorry why don't you mention Italy in this?


We have totally excluded hundreds of thousands of Jews from social life... are we special?

Another thing: we (Italy) should have been there at the Nuremberg trial too.

Great Britain wanted it that way.

The USA objected for logical reasons as to who was NOT guilty of so many mass killings.

Do you know what we did in the African Hills?

We exterminated the populations with gas and bombed them with planes.
We raped and set fire to everything with flamethrowers.

We wanted to bacteriologically pollute their waters.

Then the government said no because we had to occupy them later.

But we have committed crazy crimes in Greece, Slovenia and other countries.

We're not that much better.

But you don't mention them...sorry why are we missing from your list?

<>
The Holocaust in Italy

At the 1938 census there were more than 47,000 Italian Jews present in Italy, just over the
0.1% of the population reached 45 million, as well as 10,000 Jews of foreign nationality.


The racial laws introduced starting in 1938 forced many Jews to leave the country
vo


untarily (at least six thousand emigrated), others were deported to concentration camps
in Italy and abroad (over 6,000).

In the space of a few weeks, around 200 teachers, 400 public employees, 500
private employees, 150 soldiers and 2,500 professionals, also 200 university students, 1000 of the
secondary schools and 4,400 elementary schools were forced to leave the study.
At the fall of fascism, there were 37,000 Jews left in Italy and 7,000 foreign Jews1
.
The toll from racial persecution alone was heavy: 7,579 Jews were identified
arrested, of which 6,806 were deported to extermination Italians camps, from which only 837 returned.
1 6806 arrested and deported


of which:
5,969 deaths
837 survivors
2 Arrested and dead in Italy 322 *
3 Arrested and escaped in Italy 451 **
Total identified 7,579
*of them 42 were not actually arrested: they committed suicide or were killed while evading arrest or
they died from serious hardship or deprivation
**indicative number. It is not possible at the moment to draw up complete tables. These are escapees, freed people or others
cases.
Source CDEC, for further information:


The census data are taken from Susan Zuccotti, L'olocaust in Italia, Tea Storico, 1995, in turn cited by Renzo
De Felice, History of Italian Jews under Fascism, Einaudi, Turin, 1972


Italy switched sides before the war ended, so I guess the Allies were content to see them as reformed good guys.


Italy was collapsing due to the Allied bombings that devastated our cities.

They massacred civilians.

Then it didn't end as you write: there was a Fascist Republic with the Nazis in Salò which is in Italy.


In Italy there was fighting for another 2 years almost between the Resistance with the allies, and the Fascists and Nazist who were together.
I am writing this to you knowing our history


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Huckleberry Finn
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22 Oct 2023, 4:24 am

All the data I write can be consulted in the archives, not only ours.

We were like the Nazis, not different or better.

We have carried out gas massacres, and the systematic annihilation of different ethnic groups in other (many) nations.


They also mention it in the archives of those Nazis,and those involved from other nations as well. and the numerical data coincide exactly, these are enormous figures.

We were also involved in the war crimes.


It was decided to leave us out of the Nuremberg Trials.


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Huckleberry Finn
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22 Oct 2023, 4:37 am

@Kraichgauer:


Try searching in English for Italian war crimes.

The data is enormous even before the world wars and after.

<>
Do you know what government we have now?

Far right.


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22 Oct 2023, 5:30 am

naturalplastic wrote:
goldfish21 wrote:
I kind of get
w*



The boundaries of the "nations" of the Middle East are set up in a way that INSURES "forever wars".

The whole Middle East had been ruled by the Ottoman Empire for four plus centuries. It collapsed at the end of the First World War. So Britain and France carved up the middle East between themselves. And did so with little regard for the ethnic groups in the region. Lumping together hostile groups into one unit, and also splitting up the same group among different nations (notably the Kurds). So you ended up with a bunch of jury-rigged dysfunctional nations slapped together with duct tape (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, are all good examples).

And that was even BEFORE you add Zionism to the mix. The creation of the Jewish state out of Palestine added even more spice to the cocktail.

O.


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22 Oct 2023, 5:31 am

It is often said that "History repeats itself".
While this is probably not strictly true, it could be said that with enough translation, one can see the parallels.

Perhaps familiarizing one's self with these three concepts would lead to a bit of temporal resonance?:

Übermensch
Lebensraum
Untermensch

The abused all too often become their abusers., on an individual and even National scale...


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22 Oct 2023, 6:59 am

Here's an analysis of Piers Morgan's interview with Bassem Youssef:



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22 Oct 2023, 7:39 am

This land is our land, this land is our land!
From Giv'at Aliyah, to Nahal Elisha`
From Lebanon's border, to the Red Sea waters
This land was made for only Jews!

As I was praying, in places hallowed
I heard inside me, the voice of Jesus
He said that we were, God's most-loved children
This land was made for those in Christ!

I've roamed and rambled, and I've followed His footsteps
To the sparkling sands of her diamond deserts
And all around me, Allah was sounding
This land was made as Palestine!

The sun comes shining, on warheads falling
Our missiles climbing, the death appalling
To millions dying, a voice comes calling
This land was made for ALL of you!
(What, you didn't hear me properly before??)

With apologies to Woody Guthrie...
(sad that I wrote this something like a decade ago, and it's STILL appropriate...)


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22 Oct 2023, 7:39 am

"When crazy and stalking Israel's plains,
And families seem targets to your scrambled brains,
'stead suckle your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier. "

--(with apologies to Rudyard)


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22 Oct 2023, 8:36 am

cyberdad wrote:
However you try and spin human rights, Israel has just as much right as the US to pursue those who have continuously inflicted unprovoked attacks on their civilian population


'right' ? Whose right ? Nobody, absolutely nobody, has the right to commit war crimes - f*cking nobody :evil:


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