Baltimore: ALL Confederate Statues Have Now Been Removed

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That answered my question.

The fact you chose to ignore the rest of my response provides evidence for what I have always known about your values Ezra. You don't care what black people think. This probably reflects the values of most conservative white Americans that what black people think, feel or say doesn't matter. Prefer they were invisible.

In addition to what funeralempire said I could add a few more points.

- I was speaking about the black American perception about the confederacy and therefore what statues of Stonewall Jackson represent to them. I think I was being fairly accurate in conveying that for black Americans the antebellum south was one giant concentration camp where every hour of every day they lived in terror of their white masters who (like Washington and Jefferson) had the power of life and death over them. The torture and terror experienced by almost all black people for 400 years (as opposed to 5 years of Nazi concentration camps) has created intergenerational trauma that is very difficult to compare to any other period in history. I am honestly amazed that black people are as conciliatory toward white Americans as they are and not declare war. To try and diminish this impact is to sweep the legacy of slavery under the carper because you feel uncomfortable is to ignore how black Americans think and feel.

- Black people are Americans. Just like gay people, disabled people and other minority groups. I think this is a critical factor that white Americans subconsciously don't accept black Americans (or other minorities for that matter) as American in the same way as they see their own communities. How do I know? see their response to black lives matter.
https://theconversation.com/the-backlas ... tice-85587

This echoes what I posted to Ezra that for white Americans the trials and tribulations of black Americans doesn't warrant even a few seconds of their time. For black Americans they are conscious about race all the time because it's a legacy of slavery and a history of discrimination even post-Jim Crow. They still face discrimination from the cradle to the grave. For the average white American race is not something they think about or care about.

When you say that you can't compare slavery to the Nazi treatment of Jews it reflects your subjective values rather than than some pretence of quantitative comparative analysis. Americans need to accept what they have done (and are still doing) to minorities.

Instead of listening to people like Trump who are playing a prejudiced narrative based on lies that just reinforces their own bias they need to sit and listen to black people and other downtrodden minorities and just shut up and listen rather than trying to build higher walls.....(Trump's Mexican wall is actually an accurate metaphorical truth about white America who only want to build walls between them and the undesirables - blacks, the poor, homeless, unemployed, gays, Mexicans, muslims etc...

People wonder why I am always posting about Trump....it's because he lies with impunity and is rarely held to account.

Trump declared war on black Americans when after throwing a black protestor from one of his rallies in 2015 he posted this
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... e-victims/

Fake news (real fake news not the type he accuses the mainstream media of posting about him) from his mentors in Breitbart designed to reinforce racist values about black Americans....no wonder he stood like a Knight in shining armour to protect statues of Stonewall Jackson and other confederate statues....

If you insist on making things personal as usual keep in mind that I come from a multi racial family, including black. As far as values go, there's a big difference between having them and putting on a grand show of having them. It's like the person who prays loudest in church, makes sure it's known that he puts big bucks in the offering plate and loudly denounces sinners. There's a reason why I didn't bother to address your posturing.

Now now, it isn't politically correct to point out the scale of the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade or to describe it objectively. We're not supposed to discuss this because it makes some people uncomfortable, even if refusing to discuss it means never actually atoning for it or even recognizing it for what it was.

It isn't just westerners that need to atone for the actions of their ancestors, because the Arab slave trade was a horrific evil inflicted upon Africa as well, and that's still focused on just one continent. Anti-Imperialism doesn't just mean anti-western Imperialism; one thing that all humanity has in common is that we are descended from people who engaged in these behaviours against their neighbours and that asking forgiveness for the misdeeds of our ancestors doesn't take away from what we have now or what we can have in the future.

We have no choice but to accept that it's happened, that doesn't mean we need to celebrate it. My dad mentioned a metaphor he uses when people are critical of the Crown continuing to respect treaties with indigenous peoples. How long do I gotta keep your car after I stole it before it becomes mine? If it was wrong then and it's still wrong now, how is condemning it now a problem?

Last edited by funeralxempire on 30 Nov 2019, 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually your values are transparent but I am not making it personal merely stating what is self-evident that that they merely reflect mainstream white American values (which I am sure you don't object to).

BTW..when did you acquire a black family member? you told me your non-white family was made up of people of native origin (distant if I recall) and Dominican origin and I recall you were at great pains to point out your Dominican aunt had a family tree/lineage indicating a white Spanish ancestry.

I guess you forgot uncle Bertie who is your second cousin removed who married an African American? your response sounds like the classic line - I can't be racist because I have a black friend

What the f**k do you know about "mainstream white American values?" How much time have you spent in the U.S., and how many parts of the country have you visited?

Look everyone, I'm having to talk about myself again.

I have written about my family for years. Long before I ever got into political discussions. But also in posts that you have read. But you do not pay attention. The fact that you go into things with minimal effort tells me you are putting on a show. You don't even seem to read and or understand articles you post links to.

I have an African American aunt (dad's brother's wife), an Hispanic aunt (dad's brother's wife), a Japanese uncle (mom's sister's husband) and many First Cousins of color. All of whom I am with on a regular basis. We are a very tight-knit bunch.

That should make it clear that I do not come from a family that has nor was I raised with with what you call "mainstream white American values" which obviously means racism. But you don't seem to put much thought into what you say, you just crank out scripted NPC responses by default.

A lot of what you say is actually degrading towards people of color, which has been pointed out many times. But you don't seem to get that. Probably because you are too busy trying to showcase how non-racist you supposedly are while loudly accusing others of it.

Can you imagine an American pontificating about life in Australia or another country, the way cyberdad pontificates about life in America?

If you mean kneeling to the American anthem, baseball, Halloween and the superbowl...probably nothing....

When it comes to race I suspect values are probably the same as here in Australia...

Eminent sociologist Prof Richard Jenkins is a world authority on "Social Identity" and he says in his textbook of the same name;
Most white Americans grow up in majority white environments where they have few neighbors, classmates or friends of color.

white parents’ decision about the best neighborhood to raise a family or enroll their children in school shapes the social context in which white children develop an understanding about members of their own racial group and members of outside racial groups.

Research demonstrates, identity development is relational. That means people develop an awareness of themselves as a member of a particular group when they spend time around people whom they perceive as being different from them. Hence, if a white person grows up in a mono-racial environment, it is unlikely that they will accord much attention to race. Instead, they will focus on the factors that differentiate themselves and their families from other members of their community — their class status, political affiliation or religion. Over time, race will fade from their view as a meaningful social identity for themselves and others.
Among the white parents I interviewed, the majority of whom were middle class, parents expressed a desire to raise non-racist white children. Most felt the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid speaking with their children about race, racism and racial inequality — past or present.

For example, shortly after I began my research in 2014, Michael Brown, an African American teenager, was shot and killed by Darren Wilson, a white police officer in Ferguson, Mo. News of Brown’s death and the protests that followed were featured prominently in mainstream news and social media. Despite this, almost none of the parents I interviewed spoke with their children about the incident, or the ensuing protests. They also remained silent about the topic of police violence toward African Americans. When I asked parents why, many said they didn’t want to “upset” their children. Others noted that the subject didn’t “relate” to their (white) family’s life. When viewed in relation to the conversations of parents of color, white parents’ silence about these issues is a luxury that reinforces their racial privilege — in part by reinforcing the idea that whites exist “outside” of racial matters.

Like I said before if you maintain a wall of silence around your children they will grow up thinking the world they live in is utopia

The values I am referring to is ones that are shared across your country (refer to my response to vegetableman)

...and Canada. Canadians and Australians both might enjoy the hobby of bringing up American racism to distract from their legacy. In order to make people into second-class citizens you need to make them the lesser man. Indigenous peoples are constantly told to be grateful to have our cultures destroyed because they were replaced with 'better' ones - but that's like if I kidnap someone from a hut, violate them, die and leave them to inherit my mansion while I insist we're now even.

The slave trade and the holocaust were not comparable but uniquely evil with many different causes.
I am discussing the events as a whole. Yes of course the horror to the individual murdered by Nazis is similar to the horror of being murdered by your slave owner or by your local psycho for that matter.
You are right I was writing with the Confederacy in mind as that is in the title of this thread.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 01 Dec 2019, 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Not sure what tricks they use in Canada, but here in Australia they throw money to fix the problem with gaps in indigenous health, education and quality of life. There is general cynicism against indigenous culture and TBH the way it's handled is exactly like with BLM....just don't talk to your kids about stuff that tells them society is unequal. That way they are conditioned to think nothing's wrong so by the time they get to college they lack the ability to empathise with people less privileged...

best exemplified by the lyrics in an Ed Sheeran song
My daddy told me, "son, don't you get involved in
Politics, religions or other people's quotes"

That seems fair, but there does seem to be a tendency to downplay some people's sufferings over others.
The Holocaust was one act that occurred towards the end of horrible period of human history. The Germans have had their nose rubbed in it relentlessly. They've made significant attempts to atone.

Slavery within Anglo-America covered hundreds of years in that period, and that's what the Confederates fought to defend. White Americans accepted it for that entire period, openly. They were proud of it. Some of them are still proud of it. They haven't atoned for it at all and act offended when people bring it up, especially that aspect. That's part of the problem.

The only reason the south hasn't had their nose rubbed in their mess like the Germans is that white Americans sympathize more with European Jews than with black Americans. Some of them seem to even sympathize with the CSA, or continue to downplay what motivated their treachery.

All of that compounds to make the one a much larger transgression, even if both are colossal.