Board index › General Discussion › News and Current Events

US Ambassador to Libya killed

Page 5 of 6 [ 95 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,154
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

18 Sep 2012, 11:34 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

No, we only accuse those of spewing hate speech If they've been spewing hate speech.
And there have been far more gun toting nuts on the right than there have ever been on the left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is "hate speech"? One man's "hate speech" is another mans bold political declaration.

Is it "hate speech" to declare, for example, that negroes has lower i.q. scores on average than caucasians or Asians? Or is it simply a statement that might or might be factually correct? Did Murray and Herrnstein practice "hate speech" in their book -The Bell Curve-?

Was it "hate speech" for the Abolitionists to declare that slave owners were doing Satan's Work? Or was it valid criticism of the institution of slavery? Was it "hate speech" for the slave owners to declare the Abolitionists enemies of God and people opposed to God's will?

You see how complicated this can get, I hope. You should not confuse your politically generated judgement (particularly moral judgements) with empirically verified fact. In truth, all morality is opinion. There are no moral facts in nature, only moral judgments that humans make about various issues. In all there laws of nature, the physical laws there is not one law that has any moral import whatsoever. Nature does not give one good god damn about what is right or wrong. Only people do that. And they could be mistaken, too.

ruveyn


I think though there are forms of speech that can't be construed as anything but hatred. When the KKK or Nazis publicly march and proclaim the message that blacks and Jews should be gassed, it can't be mistaken for anything but hate speech. Clearly, that goes beyond a simple differing point of view.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

18 Sep 2012, 12:26 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

No, we only accuse those of spewing hate speech If they've been spewing hate speech.
And there have been far more gun toting nuts on the right than there have ever been on the left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is "hate speech"? One man's "hate speech" is another mans bold political declaration.

Is it "hate speech" to declare, for example, that negroes has lower i.q. scores on average than caucasians or Asians? Or is it simply a statement that might or might be factually correct? Did Murray and Herrnstein practice "hate speech" in their book -The Bell Curve-?

Was it "hate speech" for the Abolitionists to declare that slave owners were doing Satan's Work? Or was it valid criticism of the institution of slavery? Was it "hate speech" for the slave owners to declare the Abolitionists enemies of God and people opposed to God's will?

You see how complicated this can get, I hope. You should not confuse your politically generated judgement (particularly moral judgements) with empirically verified fact. In truth, all morality is opinion. There are no moral facts in nature, only moral judgments that humans make about various issues. In all there laws of nature, the physical laws there is not one law that has any moral import whatsoever. Nature does not give one good god damn about what is right or wrong. Only people do that. And they could be mistaken, too.

ruveyn


I think though there are forms of speech that can't be construed as anything but hatred. When the KKK or Nazis publicly march and proclaim the message that blacks and Jews should be gassed, it can't be mistaken for anything but hate speech. Clearly, that goes beyond a simple differing point of view.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't see silencing "hate speech" as a good idea, no matter how vile and incendiary. There are better ways to fight it. Let people make fools of themselves if they want so long as they don't have the power to act on their noxious beliefs. This stuff should be fought culturally. If the views of those who spew true "hate speech" ever gain a majority society is screwed anyways as by that time the government will be on their side. Heaven forbid it ever comes to that.



visagrunt
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Vancouver, BC

18 Sep 2012, 1:08 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


_________________
--James


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,154
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

18 Sep 2012, 1:13 pm

marshall wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

No, we only accuse those of spewing hate speech If they've been spewing hate speech.
And there have been far more gun toting nuts on the right than there have ever been on the left.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is "hate speech"? One man's "hate speech" is another mans bold political declaration.

Is it "hate speech" to declare, for example, that negroes has lower i.q. scores on average than caucasians or Asians? Or is it simply a statement that might or might be factually correct? Did Murray and Herrnstein practice "hate speech" in their book -The Bell Curve-?

Was it "hate speech" for the Abolitionists to declare that slave owners were doing Satan's Work? Or was it valid criticism of the institution of slavery? Was it "hate speech" for the slave owners to declare the Abolitionists enemies of God and people opposed to God's will?

You see how complicated this can get, I hope. You should not confuse your politically generated judgement (particularly moral judgements) with empirically verified fact. In truth, all morality is opinion. There are no moral facts in nature, only moral judgments that humans make about various issues. In all there laws of nature, the physical laws there is not one law that has any moral import whatsoever. Nature does not give one good god damn about what is right or wrong. Only people do that. And they could be mistaken, too.

ruveyn


I think though there are forms of speech that can't be construed as anything but hatred. When the KKK or Nazis publicly march and proclaim the message that blacks and Jews should be gassed, it can't be mistaken for anything but hate speech. Clearly, that goes beyond a simple differing point of view.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't see silencing "hate speech" as a good idea, no matter how vile and incendiary. There are better ways to fight it. Let people make fools of themselves if they want so long as they don't have the power to act on their noxious beliefs. This stuff should be fought culturally. If the views of those who spew true "hate speech" ever gain a majority society is screwed anyways as by that time the government will be on their side. Heaven forbid it ever comes to that.


Absolutely true.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Pyrite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States

18 Sep 2012, 7:33 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Odin wrote:
What is really angering me is how so many of my fellow Left-wingers are willing to capitulate to the religious nut-jobs and promote censorship.

Being angry at a bigoted, offensive movie is no excuse for murder.


Odin, left-wingers do it all the time, you're the exception that proves the rule. The thing is the left has always been okay with silencing free-speech when it is something that doesn't fit their mindset.

I'm just surprised that there is a left-winger here with some sense of objectivity...


The way people are up in arms over an "apology for free speech" that was never made is a little ridiculous.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... ogy-was-i/


:roll:

Politifact needs their truth-o-meter fixed then, because I've actually seen the twitter post in question.


Their statement explicitly invoked the "universal right to free speech" and indicate the video to be covered by it while condemning its content and taking no responsibility for it.

This is, of course, the same position the Romney campaign (which led the apology criticism) took with regard to the video.

They followed it up with a tweet alluding to their "condemnation" of what those who made the video.

Where was the apology again?



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

18 Sep 2012, 8:26 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....



Pyrite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States

18 Sep 2012, 8:33 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

18 Sep 2012, 8:41 pm

Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?


You do realize that the Egyptian Military and the Egyptian Civilian government apparently don't see eye to eye...

When you have the younger brother to the current leader of Al Qaeda in the demonstration on 9/11, among others. It seems fairly obvious that this was planned.

More importantly, I think people should ask themselves why is the Obama Administration lieing about what happened in Libya. People don't haul RPGs to a spontaneous demonstration (assuming there was a demonstration because that is now in doubt).

Something you all need to consider, unlike everyone posting here, many of these people don't even have a computer, let alone an internet connection. This all happened on 9/11/2012, 11 years to the day where there was the attacks on the twin towers.

You have Libyian officials saying they warned our government 3 days in advance that they thought something was afoot. The interm President of Libya, has basically accused the Obama Administration of lieing.

Somebody isn't telling the truth concerning the attack in Libya, and considering the descriptions of the attack, it sure looks like the Obama White House is lieing.



Pyrite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States

18 Sep 2012, 9:17 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?


You do realize that the Egyptian Military and the Egyptian Civilian government apparently don't see eye to eye...

When you have the younger brother to the current leader of Al Qaeda in the demonstration on 9/11, among others. It seems fairly obvious that this was planned.

More importantly, I think people should ask themselves why is the Obama Administration lieing about what happened in Libya. People don't haul RPGs to a spontaneous demonstration (assuming there was a demonstration because that is now in doubt).

Something you all need to consider, unlike everyone posting here, many of these people don't even have a computer, let alone an internet connection. This all happened on 9/11/2012, 11 years to the day where there was the attacks on the twin towers.

You have Libyian officials saying they warned our government 3 days in advance that they thought something was afoot. The interm President of Libya, has basically accused the Obama Administration of lieing.

Somebody isn't telling the truth concerning the attack in Libya, and considering the descriptions of the attack, it sure looks like the Obama White House is lieing.


It seems like the security that's clashing with protesters is the police, which are under the control of the ministry of interior (see: civilian administration) rather than the army which doesn't seem to have much to do with it.


_________________
AQ 40. EQ 10/SQ 92. AS 184/NT 18. dx.


Pileo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 523

18 Sep 2012, 10:09 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bold assertion?


There is some evidence that it was planned, but by al-Qaeda. Here's a news article from Al Jazeera. Its still speculation, but its what the Libyans are thinking.

One of the reasons they think it's al-Qaeda is because it's part of their plan (link). Keep in mind, al-Qaeda's numbers stretch into the tens of thousands and they have many members in high places in the Middle East. While we were bombing Iraq, they've been using our actions and the Tea Party-and-co to convert people to their version of Islam and to incite anger amongst the population.

To them, we're not the enemy because we're free, we're the enemy because they think we're a Christian nation. Republicans are proving them right and it's only fueling the fire.

-----

Some stuff some of you might find interesting and it may add some dimension to the conversation. All links, FYI.

Here's photos from a Libyan rally in support of the US after the attack on Egypt.
A variety of news articles showing that Muslim leaders are calling for peace. Take your pick.
Pope asks Christians to work towards peace
Christian Science Monitor: What Muslim teachings say about retribution for blasphemy
WARNING: Some graphic content. CBS news report detailing how Libyans tried to save Ambassador Stevens, but alas, it was too late.
Wikipedia page on al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda doesn't think all Muslims are the same, why should we?

Video of prominent Orthodox Muslim scholar laying down what the Quran says about reacting in anger.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6zuKbBlmRo&feature=g-hist[/youtube]

I really hope this post doesn't bite me in the ass. >_>'



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

18 Sep 2012, 10:40 pm

Pileo wrote:
One of the reasons they think it's al-Qaeda is because it's part of their plan (link). Keep in mind, al-Qaeda's numbers stretch into the tens of thousands and they have many members in high places in the Middle East. While we were bombing Iraq, they've been using our actions and the Tea Party-and-co to convert people to their version of Islam and to incite anger amongst the population.

To them, we're not the enemy because we're free, we're the enemy because they think we're a Christian nation. Republicans are proving them right and it's only fueling the fire.



That's kinda pathetic to try to drag the Tea Party and Christianity into this... Not that I wasn't expecting someone to try it.



Pileo
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 523

18 Sep 2012, 10:50 pm

You do realize Muslims and Christians have not liked each other for quite some time (link)? It's a highly documented part of world history.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

18 Sep 2012, 11:04 pm

Pileo wrote:
You do realize Muslims and Christians have not liked each other for quite some time (link)? It's a highly documented part of world history.


In case you haven't realized radical Islam wants to establish a world-wide theocracy where we all live under Shariah (sp?) law.

For all people complain about Christians when it comes to their objections to homosexuality, Christians are not in the habit of executing homosexuals...

We don't see Catholics and Baptists inflicting violence on each other on a routine basis. We see that with Shiite and Sunni (sp?) (really don't feel like looking up spelling atm).

Thing is moderate Muslims often let the radicals run rampent, and until the moderates say enough is enough, we're going to continue to see incidents like this.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,154
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

18 Sep 2012, 11:41 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?


You do realize that the Egyptian Military and the Egyptian Civilian government apparently don't see eye to eye...

When you have the younger brother to the current leader of Al Qaeda in the demonstration on 9/11, among others. It seems fairly obvious that this was planned.

More importantly, I think people should ask themselves why is the Obama Administration lieing about what happened in Libya. People don't haul RPGs to a spontaneous demonstration (assuming there was a demonstration because that is now in doubt).

Something you all need to consider, unlike everyone posting here, many of these people don't even have a computer, let alone an internet connection. This all happened on 9/11/2012, 11 years to the day where there was the attacks on the twin towers.

You have Libyian officials saying they warned our government 3 days in advance that they thought something was afoot. The interm President of Libya, has basically accused the Obama Administration of lieing.

Somebody isn't telling the truth concerning the attack in Libya, and considering the descriptions of the attack, it sure looks like the Obama White House is lieing.


(Sigh) And why is the Obama administration lying this time? :roll:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

18 Sep 2012, 11:44 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?


You do realize that the Egyptian Military and the Egyptian Civilian government apparently don't see eye to eye...

When you have the younger brother to the current leader of Al Qaeda in the demonstration on 9/11, among others. It seems fairly obvious that this was planned.

More importantly, I think people should ask themselves why is the Obama Administration lieing about what happened in Libya. People don't haul RPGs to a spontaneous demonstration (assuming there was a demonstration because that is now in doubt).

Something you all need to consider, unlike everyone posting here, many of these people don't even have a computer, let alone an internet connection. This all happened on 9/11/2012, 11 years to the day where there was the attacks on the twin towers.

You have Libyian officials saying they warned our government 3 days in advance that they thought something was afoot. The interm President of Libya, has basically accused the Obama Administration of lieing.

Somebody isn't telling the truth concerning the attack in Libya, and considering the descriptions of the attack, it sure looks like the Obama White House is lieing.


(Sigh) And why is the Obama administration lying this time? :roll:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Because having an ambassador killed on their watch because they weren't paying enough attention to what was going on overseas won't exactly help Obama's re-election chances...



Pyrite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Mar 2012
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,247
Location: Mid-Atlantic United States

18 Sep 2012, 11:54 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Pyrite wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Egypt on the other hand, it is rather apparent that the Muslim Brotherhood controlled government is behind the attack on our Egyptian Embassy.


Really?

Do you have a shred of evidence to support that rather bald assertion?


Uh visagrunt, it's fairly obvious when the President of Egypt is a member of the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood....


The Egyptian government is behind both the protesters and the people shooting the protesters?


You do realize that the Egyptian Military and the Egyptian Civilian government apparently don't see eye to eye...

When you have the younger brother to the current leader of Al Qaeda in the demonstration on 9/11, among others. It seems fairly obvious that this was planned.

More importantly, I think people should ask themselves why is the Obama Administration lieing about what happened in Libya. People don't haul RPGs to a spontaneous demonstration (assuming there was a demonstration because that is now in doubt).

Something you all need to consider, unlike everyone posting here, many of these people don't even have a computer, let alone an internet connection. This all happened on 9/11/2012, 11 years to the day where there was the attacks on the twin towers.

You have Libyian officials saying they warned our government 3 days in advance that they thought something was afoot. The interm President of Libya, has basically accused the Obama Administration of lieing.

Somebody isn't telling the truth concerning the attack in Libya, and considering the descriptions of the attack, it sure looks like the Obama White House is lieing.


(Sigh) And why is the Obama administration lying this time? :roll:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Because having an ambassador killed on their watch because they weren't paying enough attention to what was going on overseas won't exactly help Obama's re-election chances...


I would have thought it would look better for them to have a diplomat killed on their watch in an organized attack by a dangerous terrorist organization than it would if it was just a random mob including a smattering of random supposedly pro-American rebels without a cause who happened to bring their Libyan revolutionary army surplus RPGs and AK-47s with them.

You lose less face if the person who beat you is more formidable, not less.