Marvel Comics To Introduce Muslim Superhero
Thelibrarian
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So, right is whatever we want it to be?
Depends on your own moral compass.I don't think it's right to spread poison on my garden.To another person this is ok.
Some people think capital punishment is right,others don't.
It's called moral relativism, which is another way of saying no morality at all. If we all decide what is moral for us, then it's hard to find fault with anything, is it not? Stalin thought it was right to wipe out everybody except the working class. So, it must be okay--right?
I like the Golden Rule.But I also believe that as a human I am no more special than a spider.All beings want to live and be happy.How am I more special in my desire for happiness than an insect?

Lizard, I like the Golden Rule as well. But a lot of people don't--at least in practice. And if we are all allowed to choose our own morality, that would be their right.
Having said this, you didn't answer my question: Is it okay for people like Stalin and Hitler to choose their own morality? If so, then we have no right to judge what they did.
sonofghandi
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Having said this, I am NOT a moral universalist. I do believe that every group has the right to decide what is moral and immoral for them. For example, if Muslims believe that, say, female genital mutilation and polygyny are moral, that is their business. If Westerners say these things are immoral, that is our business. Again, as with laws and language, morality must be commonly recognized by the society to be worthy of the name. Laws, language, and morality are absolutely necessary prerequisites for any civil society.
Having said this, of course we can argue over what SHOULD be moral, as long as we fully recognize what IS moral, just as we can argue over whether something should be legal or illegal as long as we recognize that issue's actual legal status.
Thank you for the clarification. I now understand exactly what you were saying, and I agree completely.
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"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently" -Nietzsche
Marvel superheroes were developed during the war era in American history and depict supermen who were able to project the values of the average white christian American of the time and defend American society from those plotting to destroy the fabric of conservative christian middle class America. They played a role in providing kids with hope that America would always remain safe as well as escapism from real life horrors of wartime.
The character who epitomized the Marvel superhero the most was Captain America. The idea of a muslim or black superhero would have been a complete anathema to mindset of the Marvel comic creators. It's a bit like the reaction to the character portrayal in the movie "Hunger Games" where the avid fan base could only visualize white American heroes. So when the movie was released the reaction was unsurprisingly negative when actors from a minority background were cast in roles that fans demanded should be people who looked like them.
So, right is whatever we want it to be?
Depends on your own moral compass.I don't think it's right to spread poison on my garden.To another person this is ok.
Some people think capital punishment is right,others don't.
It's called moral relativism, which is another way of saying no morality at all. If we all decide what is moral for us, then it's hard to find fault with anything, is it not? Stalin thought it was right to wipe out everybody except the working class. So, it must be okay--right?
I like the Golden Rule.But I also believe that as a human I am no more special than a spider.All beings want to live and be happy.How am I more special in my desire for happiness than an insect?

Lizard, I like the Golden Rule as well. But a lot of people don't--at least in practice. And if we are all allowed to choose our own morality, that would be their right.
Having said this, you didn't answer my question: Is it okay for people like Stalin and Hitler to choose their own morality? If so, then we have no right to judge what they did.
Of course what they did was wrong,they inflicted their beliefs on others.
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I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
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Bill, I think Kant makes an important distinction in his ethics between what he calls the hypothetical imperative and the categorical imperative.
The hypothetical imperative is where we are good with a specific goal in mind. For example, I will be good because I want to go to heaven.
The categorical imperative is being good simply because it is the right thing to do.
Obviously, the categorical imperative is the more lofty type of morality. But, unfortunately, most people operate in the hypothetical mode. In other words, most people cannot be counted on to do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do; they are good because of desire for reward, or to avoid punishment. Thus, the necessity of the carrot and stick approach, which Catholic theology fully recognizes. Obeying moral rules cannot be optional any more than obeying legal rules can be. There has to be consequences for failing to keep both.
But it doesn't have to be carrot or stick. That's purely a byproduct of the Christian/Abrahamic approach to morals.
Pre-christian/Socratic ethical systems maintained that moral behavior could be determined via reason and that moral behavior was necessary for a good/happy life. Therefore behaving morally was its own reward-no heaven or hell required.
You only need heaven and hell once you begin to classify arbitrary or indifferent behaviors as moral and immoral... Or when you expect people to behave morally without EXPLAINING WHY.
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Thelibrarian
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So, right is whatever we want it to be?
Depends on your own moral compass.I don't think it's right to spread poison on my garden.To another person this is ok.
Some people think capital punishment is right,others don't.
It's called moral relativism, which is another way of saying no morality at all. If we all decide what is moral for us, then it's hard to find fault with anything, is it not? Stalin thought it was right to wipe out everybody except the working class. So, it must be okay--right?
I like the Golden Rule.But I also believe that as a human I am no more special than a spider.All beings want to live and be happy.How am I more special in my desire for happiness than an insect?

Lizard, I like the Golden Rule as well. But a lot of people don't--at least in practice. And if we are all allowed to choose our own morality, that would be their right.
Having said this, you didn't answer my question: Is it okay for people like Stalin and Hitler to choose their own morality? If so, then we have no right to judge what they did.
Of course what they did was wrong,they inflicted their beliefs on others.
Considering that Stalin was acting according to his own personal morals, do you think that others should have inflicted their beliefs on Stalin?
Thelibrarian
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But it doesn't have to be carrot or stick. That's purely a byproduct of the Christian/Abrahamic approach to morals.
Actually, the "carrot and stick" approach to morals is the way of all real-world moral systems. It is the case that many people will behave themselves without the threat of draconian consequences raining down on them. But I'm sure if you think about it, legal and moral systems were created for those disinclined to behave themselves--for example, if we were all so good and perfect that none of us had a desire to murder, there would be no need for murder laws. Murder laws are written with those inclined to kill others in mind. It's the same with morals.
Pre-christian/Socratic ethical systems maintained that moral behavior could be determined via reason and that moral behavior was necessary for a good/happy life. Therefore behaving morally was its own reward-no heaven or hell required.
Pre-Christian and the Socratic ethical system are two entirely different things. Pre-Christian moral systems made liberal use of our proverbial stick. Crucifixion was actually developed as a penalty for criminals. And the less said about the treatment of criminals in the Roman games, the better. Christianity put a stop to at least some of this barbarous behavior.
As far as the Socratic system is concerned, it would be great in a world of philosophers. The problem is that few people today or then are capable of understanding Socratic philosophy, even if they were so inclined. It is not for nothing that Plato has been described as the horizon toward which all other philosophers aspire to reach. It is very difficult stuff, and has never worked as a system in the real world. Even Plato recognized this most famously in his Allegory of the Cave, and in his very elitist concept of the philosopher-king.
It is also the case that I acknowledged the difference between carrot and stick and doing the right thing for the right thing's sake by citing Kant's ethics, who is another extremely difficult philosopher to master. Mastering Kant or Plato's thought is very difficult even for those who dedicate their lives to such pursuits. What about the vast majority of people who cannot or will not bother mastering such complex thought?
Bottom line: We must live in the world we have rather than the world we may want.
Last edited by Thelibrarian on 09 Nov 2013, 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thelibrarian
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GoonSquad
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Considering that Stalin was acting according to his own personal morals, do you think that others should have inflicted their beliefs on Stalin?
You gauge Stalin's actions against what you understand to be just, wise, temperate, and courageous--because that's all anyone can honestly do.
If those actions are found to be wanting, they are immoral and you are ethically bound to oppose them.
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Thelibrarian
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Considering that Stalin was acting according to his own personal morals, do you think that others should have inflicted their beliefs on Stalin?
You gauge Stalin's actions against what you understand to be just, wise, temperate, and courageous--because that's all anyone can honestly do.
If those actions are found to be wanting, they are immoral and you are ethically bound to oppose them.
I fully agree. I said these things to disagree with Lizard's contention that we should be free to form our own ethical beliefs. If Stalin's morals are found wanting, that implies a higher moral system that we are all bound to observe. Logically, I am employing a technique known as reductio ad absurdam.
Thelibrarian
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The problem with your position is that by its very definition, morality is how we treat other people. Again, do we have the right to force a moral injunction against killing on people like Stalin?
In terms of opinion, I agree with you. We are all entitled to our own opinions; it is part of what makes us Americans. But having our own opinions on things hardly gives us the right to disregard our society's laws, whether they be legal or moral.
I would add that the father of your belief is John Stuart Mill, who formulated the notorious dictum that we should all be free to do anything we want, including harm to ourselves, provided we don't directly harm another in the process.
Interestingly, Mill himself viewed this dictum as a tactical move to de-Christianize Britain--something he succeeded at. But Mill himself was in reality something of an authoritarian, as he wanted to replace Christianity with what he termed the "Religion of Humanity", which was the precursor to modern Political Correctness. And this was a moral code Mill expected everybody to follow whether they liked it or not.
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Considering that Stalin was acting according to his own personal morals, do you think that others should have inflicted their beliefs on Stalin?
You gauge Stalin's actions against what you understand to be just, wise, temperate, and courageous--because that's all anyone can honestly do.
If those actions are found to be wanting, they are immoral and you are ethically bound to oppose them.
I fully agree. I said these things to disagree with Lizard's contention that we should be free to form our own ethical beliefs. If Stalin's morals are found wanting, that implies a higher moral system that we are all bound to observe. Logically, I am employing a technique known as reductio ad absurdam.
But you see, I am forming my own ethical beliefs based on what I understand to be the natural elements of virtue.
Everyone is free to form their own ethical and moral beliefs, even Stalin, but that does not make him immune to the judgments of others if those beliefs affect others.
Moral and ethical freedom is just like any other sort. Your freedom ends where another's begins.
Your morals and ethics don't have to be right as long as they avoid conflict.
The position is only absurd if you take it to an absurd extreme.
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Thelibrarian
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Considering that Stalin was acting according to his own personal morals, do you think that others should have inflicted their beliefs on Stalin?
You gauge Stalin's actions against what you understand to be just, wise, temperate, and courageous--because that's all anyone can honestly do.
If those actions are found to be wanting, they are immoral and you are ethically bound to oppose them.
I fully agree. I said these things to disagree with Lizard's contention that we should be free to form our own ethical beliefs. If Stalin's morals are found wanting, that implies a higher moral system that we are all bound to observe. Logically, I am employing a technique known as reductio ad absurdam.
But you see, I am forming my own ethical beliefs based on what I understand to be the natural elements of virtue.
Everyone is free to form their own ethical and moral beliefs, even Stalin, but that does not make him immune to the judgments of others if those beliefs affect others.
I'm sure good old Uncle Joe would have said the same thing; he was just forming his own ethical beliefs. So, is it okay for him to commit mass murder, and we have a right to disagree with him?
Moral and ethical freedom is just like any other sort. Your freedom ends where another's begins.
The communists thought they were for freedom too--freedom from oppression. And they thought that by killing off twenty percent of the Russian population that they were guaranteeing freedom from oppression for the survivors. Does that justify what they did? Or could there be a higher moral law that says what Stalin did was wrong?
Your morals and ethics don't have to be right as long as they avoid conflict.
And if my morals and ethics do cause conflict, who is to say I have to change them? Does your position not suggest a higher morality, one that we are bound to obey?
The position is only absurd if you take it to an absurd extreme.
Then are people whose morals you judge to be an "absurd extreme" to be subjected to a higher morality?
