Plummeting insect numbers 'threaten collapse of nature'
goldfish21
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Age: 43
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Especially not to those who figure out what causes it & how to treat it, I might add.
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No
Which is why I included an article about a study done by people who do have a working knowledge of climate science so others can read it for themselves and get more informed on the topic from experts in the field doing the research about it.
Which is why I included an article about a study done by people who do have a working knowledge of climate science so others can read it for themselves and get more informed on the topic from experts in the field doing the research about it.
What's needed is a display of the kind of knowledge in the link from the person is presenting the argument. Otherwise the more knowledgeable person they're arguing with will make mincemeat out of them. That's if one is arguing science with science, rather than just opinions being exchanged. 'Here's a link read it for yourself' comes off as being lazy, deflecting and an appeal to authority.
Especially not to those who figure out what causes it & how to treat it, I might add.
Such a claim would need to be peer reviewed and validated by established experts in the field to be considered scientifically valid.
Which is why I included an article about a study done by people who do have a working knowledge of climate science so others can read it for themselves and get more informed on the topic from experts in the field doing the research about it.
What's needed is a display of the kind of knowledge in the link from the person is presenting the argument. Otherwise the more knowledgeable person they're arguing with will make mincemeat out of them. That's if one is arguing science with science, rather than just opinions being exchanged. 'Here's a link read it for yourself' comes off as being lazy, deflecting and an appeal to authority.
Are you trying to say only climate scientists should talk about climate change online or IRL? That no one else is qualified to have a discussion about those issues and anyone who tries is somehow "being lazy"? That's fine if you feel that way, but it's not going to stop other people from discussing the issue, as much as you would seem to like to control what other people have discussions about. We're going to keep talking about climate change and keep passing around new information and research as it comes out so the average person can become more informed on the issue enough to impact their consumption choices and you can keep trying to tell us to stop if that makes you feel better but it strikes me as a waste of your time and effort.
Which is why I included an article about a study done by people who do have a working knowledge of climate science so others can read it for themselves and get more informed on the topic from experts in the field doing the research about it.
What's needed is a display of the kind of knowledge in the link from the person is presenting the argument. Otherwise the more knowledgeable person they're arguing with will make mincemeat out of them. That's if one is arguing science with science, rather than just opinions being exchanged. 'Here's a link read it for yourself' comes off as being lazy, deflecting and an appeal to authority.
Are you trying to say only climate scientists should talk about climate change online or IRL? That no one else is qualified to have a discussion about those issues and anyone who tries is somehow "being lazy"? That's fine if you feel that way, but it's not going to stop other people from discussing the issue, as much as you would seem to like to control what other people have discussions about. We're going to keep talking about climate change and keep passing around new information and research as it comes out so the average person can become more informed on the issue enough to impact their consumption choices and you can keep trying to tell us to stop if that makes you feel better but it strikes me as a waste of your time and effort.
I'm just pointing out how things work in a debate. Especially a scientific debate.
I could easily pick a field of science I don't know much if anything about, read a few articles about it, and then argue the subject using my rudimentary understanding and producing links to the articles I read as evidence. But I really wouldn't know what I was talking about. And it would show. Especially if I were arguing with someone who displayed having an in depth comprehensive working knowledge of the subject.
Not knowing science is a flimsy excuse for ignoring science.
Why kill threads you don't agree with before learning something?
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"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos
Why kill threads you don't agree with before learning something?
If that's adressed to me, I'm not ignoring science. I'm saying some who are discussing it sound like they have a more in depth comprehensive knowledge of it than others. You yourself fit more into the former category. And I'd rather see you debating the matter with kokopelli as you would probably come off as more convincing.
That is if you don't have the dismissive attitude that those who dispute what you have to say are ignoring or denying science.
Last edited by EzraS on 20 Feb 2019, 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Acidification + warming of oceans will release locked carbon and convert to labile dissolved carbon released as CO2 gas. The amount of carbon locked in the sediment of oceans + under the oceans is an unknown factor
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 090812.htm
‘The whole aim of practical politics,’ wrote H.L. Mencken, ‘is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.’ Newspapers, politicians and pressure groups have been moving smoothly for decades from one forecast apocalypse to another (nuclear power, acid rain, the ozone layer, mad cow disease, nanotechnology, genetically modified crops, the millennium bug…) without waiting to be proved right or wrong.
Increasingly, in a crowded market for alarm, it becomes necessary to make the scares up. More and more headlines about medical or environmental panics are based on published scientific papers, but ones that are little more than lies laundered into respectability with a little statistical legerdemain. Sometimes, even the exposure of the laundered lies fails to stop the scare. Dr Andrew Wakefield was struck off in 2010 after the General Medical Council found his 1998 study in the Lancet claiming a link between the MMR vaccine and autism to be fraudulent. Yet Wakefield is now a celebrity anti-vaccine activist in the United States and has left his long-suffering wife for the supermodel Elle Macpherson. Anti-vax campaigning is a lucrative business.
Meanwhile, the notion that chemicals such as bisphenol A, found in plastics, are acting as ‘endocrine disruptors’, interfering with human hormones even at very low doses, started with an outright fraudulent study that has since been retracted. Many low-quality studies on BPA have pushed this theory, but they have been torpedoed by high-quality analyses including a recent US government study called Clarity. Yet this is of course being largely ignored by the media and the activists.
So the habit of laundering lies is catching on. Three times in the past month, pseudo-science flew around the world before the scientific truth had got its boots on (as Mark Twain did not say, but Jonathan Swift almost did): in stories about insect extinction, weedkiller causing cancer, and increased flooding. The shamelessness of the apocaholics is increasingly blatant. They know that even if a story of impending doom is thoroughly debunked, the correction comes too late. The gullible media will have relayed the headline without checking, so the activists have made their fake-news hit, perhaps even raised funds on the back of it, and won.
Take the story on 10 February that ‘insects could vanish within a century’, as the Guardian’s Damian Carrington put it, echoed by the BBC. The claim is, as even several science journalists and conservationists have now reported, bunk.
The authors of the study, Francisco Sánchez-Bayo and Kris Wyckhuys, claimed to have reviewed 73 different studies to reach their conclusion that precisely 41 per cent of insect species are declining and ‘unless we change our way of producing food, insects as a whole will go down the path of extinction in a few decades’. In fact the pair had started by putting the words ‘insect’ and ‘decline’ into a database, thereby ignoring any papers finding increases in insects, or no change in numbers.
They did not check that their findings were representative enough to draw numerical conclusions from. They even misinterpreted source papers to blame declines on pesticides, when the original paper was non-committal or found contradictory results. ‘Several multivariate and correlative statistical analyses confirm that the impact of pesticides on biodiversity is larger than that of other intensive agriculture practices,’ they wrote, specifically citing a paper that actually found the opposite: that insect abundance was lower on farms where pesticide use was less.
They also relied heavily on two now famous recent papers claiming to have found fewer insects today than in the past, one in Germany and one in Puerto Rico. The first did not even compare the same locations in different years, so its conclusions are hardly reliable. The second compared samples taken in the same place in 1976 and 2012, finding fewer insects on the second occasion and blaming this on rapid warming in the region, rather than any other possible explanation, such as timing of rainfall in the two seasons. Yet it turned out that there had been no warming: the jump in temperature recorded by the local weather station was entirely caused by the thermometer having been moved to a different location in 1992. Whoops.
Of course, human activities do affect insects, but ecologists I have consulted say local populations of some species are often undergoing huge changes, and that some species regularly die out in one location and are then regenerated by migrants. This is not to be confused with species extinction. The real evidence suggests that insect species are dying out at a similar rate to mammals and birds — which means about 1 to 5 per cent per century. A problem, but not Armageddon.
Source: Lying with science: a guide to myth debunking
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Author of Practical Preparations for a Coronavirus Pandemic.
A very unique plan. As Dr. Paul Thompson wrote, "This is the very best paper on the virus I have ever seen."
How did this slip public notice?
This is legacy of right wing politics whereby real scientific data on the impact of climate change on the destruction of biota is either being ignored or distorted to support political agendas
Because most people care about money and/or status up in those positions it seems.
Though I have a strong sense that nature has some surprises left in her.
For example, much of the ocean is unexplored. Who REALLY knows what's down there?
Yes the public is quite disconnected to the environment although here in Australia people are doing small things like converting to solar (frankly the expense is a bit off a turnoff), banning plastic bags, cups and straws.
Small steps I guess, but we still burn coal...I recall one of our conservative politicians bought a lump of coal into parliament saying how much we rely on it. People here are fearful of "clean energy" due to the likelihood of increased cost of heating/cooling and lack of continuous supply.
