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United Methodist Church To Split Over Same-Sex Marriage

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TwilightPrincess
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05 Jan 2020, 9:09 am

Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
We can’t throw people in jail for their religious beliefs except in a few scenarios.

We can choose how we want to raise our kids by breaking any unhealthy religious pattern that might be in the family. I’m also using various preventative strategies like interesting evolution books and documentaries as well as philosophical discussions.

I probably don’t need to worry about it that much because he’s a chip off the old block.

I’ve forbidden my parents from letting them push religious stuff directed towards kids on him. In their religion, they actually have an anti-gay cartoon video for kids to watch. It’s awful.


As far as putting people in jail for their beliefs, the big question is how extreme those beliefs are. It seems to me that any act that causes significant amount of damage to others are already being punished. A few key points include abortion clinic shootings, getting married to someone way underage, and deprivation of medical treatment for lack of belief in modern medicine.


But preaching against same-sex love is not going to be a crime any time soon although I believe that such religious groups should lose tax exempt status because it’s discrimination in governmental arenas. That just makes obvious logical sense to me.

I was thinking that unless anti-gay rules and sermons in religious institutions start to be viewed as hate speech there’s no way to actually criminalize it. I think change in many religions regarding this issue is going to have to be a painfully slow process like it’s been already.

Fundamentalists or extremists might be a different story, though...

Many kids leave those groups when they grow up. Also, many of those churches are getting in trouble for other reasons such as child abuse which is leading to fewer and fewer converts.

Attendance in mainstream churches is down that have struggled with child abuse and child abuse cover ups, especially.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 05 Jan 2020, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bravo5150
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05 Jan 2020, 9:20 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
We can’t throw people in jail for their religious beliefs except in a few scenarios.

We can choose how we want to raise our kids by breaking any unhealthy religious pattern that might be in the family. I’m also using various preventative strategies like interesting evolution books and documentaries as well as philosophical discussions.

I probably don’t need to worry about it that much because he’s a chip off the old block.

I’ve forbidden my parents from letting them push religious stuff directed towards kids on him. In their religion, they actually have an anti-gay cartoon video for kids to watch. It’s awful.


As far as putting people in jail for their beliefs, the big question is how extreme those beliefs are. It seems to me that any act that causes significant amount of damage to others are already being punished. A few key points include abortion clinic shootings, getting married to someone way underage, and deprivation of medical treatment for lack of belief in modern medicine.


But preaching against same-sex love is not going to be a crime any time soon although I believe that such religious groups should lose tax exempt status because it’s discrimination in governmental arenas. That just makes obvious logical sense to me.

I was thinking that unless anti-gay rules and sermons in religious institutions start to be viewed as hate speech there’s no way to actually criminalize it. I think change in many religions regarding this issue is going to have to be a painfully slow process like it’s been already.

Fundamentalists or extremists might be a different story, though...

Many kids leave those groups when they grow up. Also, many of those churches are getting in trouble for other reasons such as child abuse which is leading to fewer and fewer converts.

Attendance in mainstream churches is down that have struggled with this issue especially.


Even with the argument of making it wrong to give a hate speech, it only matters when said hate speech encourages violence from what I understand. The only part of how many churches operate I can question is how things work if the church runs a food bank or other charity and refuse to give food to someone for prejudiced reasons such as sex.



TwilightPrincess
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05 Jan 2020, 9:22 am

Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
We can’t throw people in jail for their religious beliefs except in a few scenarios.

We can choose how we want to raise our kids by breaking any unhealthy religious pattern that might be in the family. I’m also using various preventative strategies like interesting evolution books and documentaries as well as philosophical discussions.

I probably don’t need to worry about it that much because he’s a chip off the old block.

I’ve forbidden my parents from letting them push religious stuff directed towards kids on him. In their religion, they actually have an anti-gay cartoon video for kids to watch. It’s awful.


As far as putting people in jail for their beliefs, the big question is how extreme those beliefs are. It seems to me that any act that causes significant amount of damage to others are already being punished. A few key points include abortion clinic shootings, getting married to someone way underage, and deprivation of medical treatment for lack of belief in modern medicine.


But preaching against same-sex love is not going to be a crime any time soon although I believe that such religious groups should lose tax exempt status because it’s discrimination in governmental arenas. That just makes obvious logical sense to me.

I was thinking that unless anti-gay rules and sermons in religious institutions start to be viewed as hate speech there’s no way to actually criminalize it. I think change in many religions regarding this issue is going to have to be a painfully slow process like it’s been already.

Fundamentalists or extremists might be a different story, though...

Many kids leave those groups when they grow up. Also, many of those churches are getting in trouble for other reasons such as child abuse which is leading to fewer and fewer converts.

Attendance in mainstream churches is down that have struggled with this issue especially.


Even with the argument of making it wrong to give a hate speech, it only matters when said hate speech encourages violence from what I understand. The only part of how many churches operate I can question is how things work if the church runs a food bank or other charity and refuse to give food to someone for prejudiced reasons such as sex.


Right, so I was saying that unless the laws regarding hate speech change then there’s no way it can be criminalized.

It’s going to have to be gradual changes driven by the broader culture.


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Bravo5150
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05 Jan 2020, 9:34 am

Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
We can’t throw people in jail for their religious beliefs except in a few scenarios.

We can choose how we want to raise our kids by breaking any unhealthy religious pattern that might be in the family. I’m also using various preventative strategies like interesting evolution books and documentaries as well as philosophical discussions.

I probably don’t need to worry about it that much because he’s a chip off the old block.

I’ve forbidden my parents from letting them push religious stuff directed towards kids on him. In their religion, they actually have an anti-gay cartoon video for kids to watch. It’s awful.


As far as putting people in jail for their beliefs, the big question is how extreme those beliefs are. It seems to me that any act that causes significant amount of damage to others are already being punished. A few key points include abortion clinic shootings, getting married to someone way underage, and deprivation of medical treatment for lack of belief in modern medicine.


But preaching against same-sex love is not going to be a crime any time soon although I believe that such religious groups should lose tax exempt status because it’s discrimination in governmental arenas. That just makes obvious logical sense to me.

I was thinking that unless anti-gay rules and sermons in religious institutions start to be viewed as hate speech there’s no way to actually criminalize it. I think change in many religions regarding this issue is going to have to be a painfully slow process like it’s been already.

Fundamentalists or extremists might be a different story, though...

Many kids leave those groups when they grow up. Also, many of those churches are getting in trouble for other reasons such as child abuse which is leading to fewer and fewer converts.

Attendance in mainstream churches is down that have struggled with this issue especially.


Even with the argument of making it wrong to give a hate speech, it only matters when said hate speech encourages violence from what I understand. The only part of how many churches operate I can question is how things work if the church runs a food bank or other charity and refuse to give food to someone for prejudiced reasons such as sex.


Right, so I was saying that unless the laws regarding hate speech change then there’s no way it can be criminalized.

It’s going to have to be gradual changes driven by the broader culture.


I don't see that happening any time soon. The current administration has made it so even a government employee can refuse to perform a marriage for reasons of beliefs.



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05 Jan 2020, 9:48 am

It's not all that unusual for an organization like the United Methodist church to have gay members. It seems obvious that since the church split in half on it, they are not hardcore against gay people.

And this is something that has been in existence for around 3300 years when Moses wrote the the 613 commandments known as the Mitzvot, which included what sexual practices were forbidden. Probably most of which most still agree with such as incest. After thousands of years it can't really be expected for it to vanish overnight relatively speaking.



Last edited by EzraS on 05 Jan 2020, 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
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05 Jan 2020, 9:48 am

Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Bravo5150 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
We can’t throw people in jail for their religious beliefs except in a few scenarios.

We can choose how we want to raise our kids by breaking any unhealthy religious pattern that might be in the family. I’m also using various preventative strategies like interesting evolution books and documentaries as well as philosophical discussions.

I probably don’t need to worry about it that much because he’s a chip off the old block.

I’ve forbidden my parents from letting them push religious stuff directed towards kids on him. In their religion, they actually have an anti-gay cartoon video for kids to watch. It’s awful.


As far as putting people in jail for their beliefs, the big question is how extreme those beliefs are. It seems to me that any act that causes significant amount of damage to others are already being punished. A few key points include abortion clinic shootings, getting married to someone way underage, and deprivation of medical treatment for lack of belief in modern medicine.


But preaching against same-sex love is not going to be a crime any time soon although I believe that such religious groups should lose tax exempt status because it’s discrimination in governmental arenas. That just makes obvious logical sense to me.

I was thinking that unless anti-gay rules and sermons in religious institutions start to be viewed as hate speech there’s no way to actually criminalize it. I think change in many religions regarding this issue is going to have to be a painfully slow process like it’s been already.

Fundamentalists or extremists might be a different story, though...

Many kids leave those groups when they grow up. Also, many of those churches are getting in trouble for other reasons such as child abuse which is leading to fewer and fewer converts.

Attendance in mainstream churches is down that have struggled with this issue especially.


Even with the argument of making it wrong to give a hate speech, it only matters when said hate speech encourages violence from what I understand. The only part of how many churches operate I can question is how things work if the church runs a food bank or other charity and refuse to give food to someone for prejudiced reasons such as sex.


Right, so I was saying that unless the laws regarding hate speech change then there’s no way it can be criminalized.

It’s going to have to be gradual changes driven by the broader culture.


I don't see that happening any time soon. The current administration has made it so even a government employee can refuse to perform a marriage for reasons of beliefs.


I’m not overly concerned about this because progress usually isn’t linear. It’s more of a jagged, saw-tooth pattern.

I’m just glad that we have the checks and balances in place that we do although keeping an eye on the current downward trend is a good idea.

It’d be worse if we lived in a country that wanted to bring back the rules and punishments of the Old Testament or Quran. I don’t think Saudi Arabia would be a relaxing place to live...


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TwilightPrincess
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05 Jan 2020, 9:49 am

EzraS wrote:
It's not all that unusual for an organization like the United Methodist church to have gay members. It seems obvious that since the church split in half on it, they are not hardcore against gay people.

And this is something that has been in existence for around 3300 years when Moses wrote the The 613 Commandments called the Mitzvot, which included what sexual practices were forbidden. Probably most of which most still agree with such as incest. After thousands of years it can't really be expected for it to vanish overnight relatively speaking.


My local Methodist Church is one of the more liberal churches in my area. It has a female minister.


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05 Jan 2020, 9:51 am

Methodists run the gamut from very liberal to moderate to very fundamentalist,it depends on your local church and there leadership.


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kraftiekortie
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05 Jan 2020, 10:18 am

They’re usually not as demonstrative about their religion as, say, Pentecostals.

They seemed to have been founded as a more “rational” counterpoint to other 18th century Protestant sects.



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05 Jan 2020, 11:22 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
They’re usually not as demonstrative about their religion as, say, Pentecostals.

They seemed to have been founded as a more “rational” counterpoint to other 18th century Protestant sects.

Yea,even the fundamentalist Methodists tend to be more rational.


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05 Jan 2020, 11:46 am

The Methodist were originally were an offshoot of the Episcopalian church who merged with the United bretheran church 1968 and became the United Methodist Church.


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EzraS
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05 Jan 2020, 11:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
They’re usually not as demonstrative about their religion as, say, Pentecostals.

They seemed to have been founded as a more “rational” counterpoint to other 18th century Protestant sects.


There's an 80 year old Pentecostal church in my town that was founded and pastored by a woman.



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05 Jan 2020, 12:04 pm

I was talking about how Pentecostals tend to be more demonstrative about their love of Jesus—not necessarily how “progressive” they are.



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05 Jan 2020, 12:06 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I was talking about how Pentecostals tend to be more demonstrative about their love of Jesus—not necessarily how “progressive” they are.


You mean as far as like more likely to organize protests against certain types of activities?



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05 Jan 2020, 12:07 pm

EzraS wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
They’re usually not as demonstrative about their religion as, say, Pentecostals.

They seemed to have been founded as a more “rational” counterpoint to other 18th century Protestant sects.


There's an 80 year old Pentecostal church in my town that was founded and pastored by a woman.


My parish priest is woman, and there are openly gay congregants. We don't discriminate against anyone, nor would we mock or belittle anyone with a different value system. I objected to the insinuation that I'm insane or irrational for going to church, supporting my community, being charitable, or having a liberal tolerance for others' beliefs.


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EzraS
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05 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I was talking about how Pentecostals tend to be more demonstrative about their love of Jesus—not necessarily how “progressive” they are.


Oh you mean charismatic.