Diocese says school that flew BLM, Pride flags not Catholic

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Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 12:17 pm

magz wrote:

Because BLM is about people being abused for coming from the wrong demographics and LGBTQ pride is about people forced to pretend to be something they're not for their entire lives.
In other words - both movements are founded on supporting the suffering.

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

One can of course discuss how well the movements really materialize their claimed goals - but this can be as well asked e.g. to "pro-lifers" who lose all their interest once the baby is born.
Most political movements have some high ideals and not as high reality. That does not make the ideals wrong.

Jesus wasn't talking about aligning with secular socio-political movements. What you're doing is called eisegesis. Which is reading into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks they find there. It expresses the reader's own subjective ideas, not the meaning which is in the text.

Christians follow Matthew 25:40, which you quoted, by giving sustenance, clothing and shelter to the needy and visiting people in hospitals and in prison.

In Matthew 25:45-46 he says, Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. Do you really think Jesus was saying that not joining BLM and LGBTQQIP2SAA+ will result in eternal punishment?

magz
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20 Jun 2022, 12:37 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Jesus wasn't talking about aligning with secular socio-political movements.

And he criticised aligning to religious socio-political movements (Pharisees, Sadducees).
So what? Should it be banned and silenced?
Does activism for systematic improvement of people's well-being not count as good will but activism for systematic punishments for abortions count?

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Do you really think Jesus was saying that not joining BLM and LGBTQQIP2SAA+ will result in eternal punishment?

Again the same straw man.
No one wanted to force all Catholics to support BLM and LGBT+.
A particular school community wanted to support them and was banned from it.

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r00tb33r
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20 Jun 2022, 3:36 pm

^ During the 2016 Clinton presidential election campaign BLM leaders were approached for specific demands of actionable policy change. Nothing of substance was ever produced. They did ask for some "community" money. The usual appeasement handouts.

Really, BLM is all about aimless riots and looting. They're angry, but they don't know what they want.

magz
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20 Jun 2022, 3:50 pm

^ If being ineffectively organized was a reason not to have support, my country would have never existed.

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r00tb33r
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20 Jun 2022, 4:46 pm

magz wrote:

^ If being ineffectively organized was a reason not to have support, my country would have never existed.

Mmm, so many jokes, so little time. :wink:

Last edited by Cornflake on 20 Jun 2022, 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a derogatory ethnic slur

cyberdad
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20 Jun 2022, 4:50 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Jesus wasn't talking about aligning with secular socio-political movements. What you're doing is called eisegesis. Which is reading into the text what the interpreter wishes to find or thinks they find there. It expresses the reader's own subjective ideas, not the meaning which is in the text.

Really Glitch. Did the thought never cross your mind that's literally what the entire "Christian" enterprise amounts to?? Rather powerful (and dubious) historical characters manipulating people's minds and reading into old jewish scripture what they want to find.

cyberdad
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20 Jun 2022, 4:58 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Christians follow Matthew 25:40, which you quoted, by giving sustenance, clothing and shelter to the needy and visiting people in hospitals and in prison.

You are now conflating irrelevant facts with symbolism. I don;t recall Jesus ever telling his followers "Thou shall build giant monstrous temples and the cruxifix shall be your symbol. Monstrous cathederals worth millions of dollars shall be built while your poor and needy starve but they shall be required to worship the cross.

Pretty much all the symbolism in modern christianity is man made, Has nothing to do with jesus. Your arguments about BLM flags or rainbow flags not representing christ are actually no different to the crucifix. So your arguments are infact strawman arguments about what can or cannot be flown outside of buildings because christ never proclaimed houses of worship as "holy", or what symbols shall represent him - that's a man-made creation.

I'll quote an old premise of being a christian, You will know we are Christians by our love. The parishioners in this church who flew those flags are expressing their love for those who feel oppressed. They are at the very least more christian in the spirit of christianity than the dioceses that wants to ban the flags.

Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 8:11 pm

magz wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Jesus wasn't talking about aligning with secular socio-political movements.

Socio-political movements at the time were the followers of Barabbas and the like. Not the priesthood. The RCC already have their own system for the improvement of people's well-being.

magz wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Do you really think Jesus was saying that not joining BLM and LGBTQQIP2SAA+ will result in eternal punishment?

Again the same straw man.
No one wanted to force all Catholics to support BLM and LGBT+.
A particular school community wanted to support them and was banned from it.

How is that a straw man when you were applying Matthew 25:31-46 to those groups? A Catholic church school was told it could no longer be a Catholic church school if it insisted on going against Catholic church policy. If people protesting this aren't trying the force the Catholic church to allow flying those flags, then what exactly is the protest? What's the actual goal?

DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2022, 8:47 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Some of these local diocese are out of step with the direction Pope Francis is trying to take the church. He just appointed a progressive as the top US cardinal.

Sounds like maybe Pope Francis is selling out.

Why? Jesus was all about acceptance.

I realize I skipped pages of debate going back to a page 1 observation, but as a Catholic, I will note that there have ALWAYS been at least two "factions" in the church, one that reaches towards the acceptance and compassionate side of the Bible, and the other that reaches towards the rules proclaimed in the Bible and historical church teachings. Pope Francis versus Pope Benedict. Social Justice versus dogmatic enforcement. I am solidly in the the acceptance and compassionate side of the church. I do feel both sides ultimately see what God ideally wants from us similarly, but there is a lot of devil in the details, and the factions disagree on the road God wishes us to take.

I also don't see how BLM is in conflict with anything either side of the church believes outside of the political perceptions thrown onto the statement by the US political right. To achieve what Christ asked of us we have to transcend political divisions.

Or even Pride: the church's position is that people don't choose gay, they are born that way.

Traditionally the splits have acted to balance each other, something that Popes Francis and Benedict seem to understand, but that a lot of US Bishops - perhaps influenced by US political divisions - seem less aware of.

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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 20 Jun 2022, 9:03 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 8:56 pm

cyberdad wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Christians follow Matthew 25:40, which you quoted, by giving sustenance, clothing and shelter to the needy and visiting people in hospitals and in prison.

I'm not the one who brought Christ into this. Those quoting what he said and trying to incorporate certain symbiology into it did. The subject here is the Church which was given authority by Christ. The question at hand is does the Church have the right to enforce it's authority regarding Church matters or not? Is it not up to the Church to decide how the Church is to display love for others?

Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 9:01 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Some of these local diocese are out of step with the direction Pope Francis is trying to take the church. He just appointed a progressive as the top US cardinal.

Sounds like maybe Pope Francis is selling out.

Why? Jesus was all about acceptance.

Jesus was all about accepting anyone who would lay aside their lives to follow him.

DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2022, 9:04 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Some of these local diocese are out of step with the direction Pope Francis is trying to take the church. He just appointed a progressive as the top US cardinal.

Sounds like maybe Pope Francis is selling out.

Why? Jesus was all about acceptance.

Jesus was all about accepting anyone who would lay aside their lives to follow him.

I added more to my post, not sure if you saw. Regardless, when you get to the heart of it, there is nothing about BLM or being gay that means someone can't follow Jesus. The Church asks that people who are gay don't engage in sex, but that ask is no different than the ask to not engage in premarital sex or masturbation, leaving me to remind that he who has no sin can cast the first stone. People seem to expect their sins to be forgiven, but not that one? It doesn't compute.

I've been to a gay commitment ceremony (before weddings were legal) in a Catholic Church. It wasn't about selling out; it was about the love that community had for the two people involved, who happened to fall in love during ministry work for the church. That is MY experience with the Catholic faith: compassion before dogma.

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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 20 Jun 2022, 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 9:13 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

That's not the issue. The issue is the RCC not wanting the RCC to fly flags. Like I asked before in this thread, would or should the RCC allow an RCC school to continually fly the Jolly Roger?

DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2022, 10:14 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

That's not the issue. The issue is the RCC not wanting the RCC to fly flags. Like I asked before in this thread, would or should the RCC allow an RCC school to continually fly the Jolly Roger?

No, the point *I* was addressing was your claim that Pope Francis is selling out, which you made in reference to my statement that the diocese in question seemed to be going in a different direction than the Pope is trying to lead the church. My original statement never questioned their right, just the seeming incongruity with the Pope's most recent appointment. So my discussion is about valid views within a split church.

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Matrix Glitch
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20 Jun 2022, 10:50 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Some of these local diocese are out of step with the direction Pope Francis is trying to take the church. He just appointed a progressive as the top US cardinal.

Sounds like maybe Pope Francis is selling out.

If Francis is capitulating to secular progressivism, then that would mean he's selling out to it. I'm not claiming that's what's happening. I'm saying what the result is if that's happening.

If such a split is taking place, that would be a split between maintaining church mores and setting them aside in favor of secular mores.

cyberdad
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21 Jun 2022, 2:04 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

The question at hand is does the Church have the right to enforce it's authority regarding Church matters or not? Is it not up to the Church to decide how the Church is to display love for others?

If you frame it that way then can the dioceses legally enforce an edict on a individual church? I don't think so. The worst they can do is cut off the rogue church from accessing catholic funds but then we are back to the issue of whether its in the spirit of being a good christian. You know the answer to that question. Then we are left with one solution which is to defund the catholic church till they stop trying to stifle freedom of expression and wanting to show solidarity and alliance with two oppressed groups,

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