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cyberdad
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01 Dec 2019, 2:19 am

This ^



EzraS
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01 Dec 2019, 3:30 am

I think the real reason behind a lot of this is making out that one side is crying their hearts out over racism and the other side are all racists.

Which has been going on here day after day, month after month, year after year.

Hasn't everyone gotten it by now? Liberals hearts are ripped apart over racism and conservatives are all heartless racists.



ASPartOfMe
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01 Dec 2019, 4:12 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The slave trade and the holocaust were not comparable but uniquely evil with many different causation.
You are right I was writing with the Confederacy in mind as that is in the title of this thread.


That seems fair, but there does seem to be a tendency to downplay some people's sufferings over others.
The Holocaust was one act that occurred towards the end of horrible period of human history. The Germans have had their nose rubbed in it relentlessly. They've made significant attempts to atone.

Slavery within Anglo-America covered hundreds of years in that period, and that's what the Confederates fought to defend. White Americans accepted it for that entire period, openly. They were proud of it. Some of them are still proud of it. They haven't atoned for it at all and act offended when people bring it up, especially that aspect. That's part of the problem.

The only reason the south hasn't had their nose rubbed in their mess like the Germans is that white Americans sympathize more with European Jews than with black Americans. Some of them seem to even sympathize with the CSA, or continue to downplay what motivated their treachery.

All of that compounds to make the one a much larger transgression, even if both are colossal.

Besides racism the Germans were and are considered foreigners. The goal of Lincoln was to "preserve the Union". The forgiving of the south began right at the end of the war.
Battle of Appomattox Court House
Quote:
The terms were as generous as Lee could hope for; his men would not be imprisoned or prosecuted for treason. Officers were allowed to keep their sidearms, horses, and personal baggage. In addition to his terms, Grant also allowed the defeated men to take home their horses and mules to carry out the spring planting and provided Lee with a supply of food rations for his starving army; Lee said it would have a very happy effect among the men and do much toward reconciling the country.] The terms of the surrender were recorded in a document hand-written by Grant's adjutant Ely S. Parker, a Native American of the Seneca tribe, and completed around 4 p.m., April 9. Lee, upon discovering Parker to be a Seneca, remarked "It is good to have one real American here." Parker replied, "Sir, we are all Americans." As Lee left the house and rode away, Grant's men began cheering in celebration, but Grant ordered an immediate stop. "I at once sent word, however, to have it stopped," he said. "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall," he said


And continued well after the war most notably the 50th and 75th reunions of veterans of the battle of Gettysburg. The south has been at times anything but gracious and an argument could be made that the country should have listened to the radical republicans and been a lot tougher with the treason but I don't think you can underestimate the "they are our countrymen" reasoning for the different treatment of south from Nazi Germany


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funeralxempire
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01 Dec 2019, 12:46 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The slave trade and the holocaust were not comparable but uniquely evil with many different causation.
You are right I was writing with the Confederacy in mind as that is in the title of this thread.


That seems fair, but there does seem to be a tendency to downplay some people's sufferings over others.
The Holocaust was one act that occurred towards the end of horrible period of human history. The Germans have had their nose rubbed in it relentlessly. They've made significant attempts to atone.

Slavery within Anglo-America covered hundreds of years in that period, and that's what the Confederates fought to defend. White Americans accepted it for that entire period, openly. They were proud of it. Some of them are still proud of it. They haven't atoned for it at all and act offended when people bring it up, especially that aspect. That's part of the problem.

The only reason the south hasn't had their nose rubbed in their mess like the Germans is that white Americans sympathize more with European Jews than with black Americans. Some of them seem to even sympathize with the CSA, or continue to downplay what motivated their treachery.

All of that compounds to make the one a much larger transgression, even if both are colossal.

Besides racism the Germans were and are considered foreigners. The goal of Lincoln was to "preserve the Union". The forgiving of the south began right at the end of the war.
Battle of Appomattox Court House
Quote:
The terms were as generous as Lee could hope for; his men would not be imprisoned or prosecuted for treason. Officers were allowed to keep their sidearms, horses, and personal baggage. In addition to his terms, Grant also allowed the defeated men to take home their horses and mules to carry out the spring planting and provided Lee with a supply of food rations for his starving army; Lee said it would have a very happy effect among the men and do much toward reconciling the country.] The terms of the surrender were recorded in a document hand-written by Grant's adjutant Ely S. Parker, a Native American of the Seneca tribe, and completed around 4 p.m., April 9. Lee, upon discovering Parker to be a Seneca, remarked "It is good to have one real American here." Parker replied, "Sir, we are all Americans." As Lee left the house and rode away, Grant's men began cheering in celebration, but Grant ordered an immediate stop. "I at once sent word, however, to have it stopped," he said. "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall," he said


And continued well after the war most notably the 50th and 75th reunions of veterans of the battle of Gettysburg. The south has been at times anything but gracious and an argument could be made that the country should have listened to the radical republicans and been a lot tougher with the treason but I don't think you can underestimate the "they are our countrymen" reasoning for the different treatment of south from
Nazi Germany


I don't disagree with your assessment of some of the reasons why the Union chose to go soft on the south, but I do believe there is one element that's often overlooked or at least downplayed. White Americans by and large convinced themselves their treatment of black Americans was not just acceptable but justified and for their own good and have never been willing to listen to any condemnation or criticism. Protecting those people's feelings (to preserve the union as you state, or for whatever other reasons since) has always been treated as more important than justice or recognition of the victims. As long as protecting the feelings of white southerners, their descendents and their sympathizers continues to be prioritized over addressing the injustices perpetrated by them, America will continue to have issues relating to white supremacism and anti-black racism.


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01 Dec 2019, 12:50 pm

cyberdad wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:
What the f**k do you know about "mainstream white American values?" How much time have you spent in the U.S., and how many parts of the country have you visited?


If you mean kneeling to the American anthem, baseball, Halloween and the superbowl...probably nothing....

When it comes to race I suspect values are probably the same as here in Australia...

Eminent sociologist Prof Richard Jenkins is a world authority on "Social Identity" and he says in his textbook of the same name;
Most white Americans grow up in majority white environments where they have few neighbors, classmates or friends of color.

white parents’ decision about the best neighborhood to raise a family or enroll their children in school shapes the social context in which white children develop an understanding about members of their own racial group and members of outside racial groups.

Research demonstrates, identity development is relational. That means people develop an awareness of themselves as a member of a particular group when they spend time around people whom they perceive as being different from them. Hence, if a white person grows up in a mono-racial environment, it is unlikely that they will accord much attention to race. Instead, they will focus on the factors that differentiate themselves and their families from other members of their community — their class status, political affiliation or religion. Over time, race will fade from their view as a meaningful social identity for themselves and others.
Among the white parents I interviewed, the majority of whom were middle class, parents expressed a desire to raise non-racist white children. Most felt the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid speaking with their children about race, racism and racial inequality — past or present.

For example, shortly after I began my research in 2014, Michael Brown, an African American teenager, was shot and killed by Darren Wilson, a white police officer in Ferguson, Mo. News of Brown’s death and the protests that followed were featured prominently in mainstream news and social media. Despite this, almost none of the parents I interviewed spoke with their children about the incident, or the ensuing protests. They also remained silent about the topic of police violence toward African Americans. When I asked parents why, many said they didn’t want to “upset” their children. Others noted that the subject didn’t “relate” to their (white) family’s life. When viewed in relation to the conversations of parents of color, white parents’ silence about these issues is a luxury that reinforces their racial privilege — in part by reinforcing the idea that whites exist “outside” of racial matters.

Like I said before if you maintain a wall of silence around your children they will grow up thinking the world they live in is utopia


So, the answer to my questions are "nothing" and "none." You simply copy and paste some stuff you hastily assembled that backs up your claim.

You see, this is why I simply detest the type of identity politics in which you so freely traffic. If you really cared about people of color, you'd be more sympathetic toward a war veteran running for president who wants to a stop endless war in the Middle East for, rather than walk lockstep with the political establishment she is fighting against.

Generalizations are not condusive to intelligent discourse. It only sows further divisions.


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funeralxempire
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01 Dec 2019, 12:51 pm

EzraS wrote:
I think the real reason behind a lot of this is making out that one side is crying their hearts out over racism and the other side are all racists.

Which has been going on here day after day, month after month, year after year.

Hasn't everyone gotten it by now? Liberals hearts are ripped apart over racism and conservatives are all heartless racists.


If the right is constantly expressing a mix of apathy and antipathy towards anyone who expresses concerns about racism or white supremacism, that's the impression they'll leave reasonable people with. They can either improve how they respond to these concerns or continue to be fairly labelled based upon the views they express.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


ASPartOfMe
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01 Dec 2019, 1:43 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The slave trade and the holocaust were not comparable but uniquely evil with many different causation.
You are right I was writing with the Confederacy in mind as that is in the title of this thread.


That seems fair, but there does seem to be a tendency to downplay some people's sufferings over others.
The Holocaust was one act that occurred towards the end of horrible period of human history. The Germans have had their nose rubbed in it relentlessly. They've made significant attempts to atone.

Slavery within Anglo-America covered hundreds of years in that period, and that's what the Confederates fought to defend. White Americans accepted it for that entire period, openly. They were proud of it. Some of them are still proud of it. They haven't atoned for it at all and act offended when people bring it up, especially that aspect. That's part of the problem.

The only reason the south hasn't had their nose rubbed in their mess like the Germans is that white Americans sympathize more with European Jews than with black Americans. Some of them seem to even sympathize with the CSA, or continue to downplay what motivated their treachery.

All of that compounds to make the one a much larger transgression, even if both are colossal.

Besides racism the Germans were and are considered foreigners. The goal of Lincoln was to "preserve the Union". The forgiving of the south began right at the end of the war.
Battle of Appomattox Court House
Quote:
The terms were as generous as Lee could hope for; his men would not be imprisoned or prosecuted for treason. Officers were allowed to keep their sidearms, horses, and personal baggage. In addition to his terms, Grant also allowed the defeated men to take home their horses and mules to carry out the spring planting and provided Lee with a supply of food rations for his starving army; Lee said it would have a very happy effect among the men and do much toward reconciling the country.] The terms of the surrender were recorded in a document hand-written by Grant's adjutant Ely S. Parker, a Native American of the Seneca tribe, and completed around 4 p.m., April 9. Lee, upon discovering Parker to be a Seneca, remarked "It is good to have one real American here." Parker replied, "Sir, we are all Americans." As Lee left the house and rode away, Grant's men began cheering in celebration, but Grant ordered an immediate stop. "I at once sent word, however, to have it stopped," he said. "The Confederates were now our countrymen, and we did not want to exult over their downfall," he said


And continued well after the war most notably the 50th and 75th reunions of veterans of the battle of Gettysburg. The south has been at times anything but gracious and an argument could be made that the country should have listened to the radical republicans and been a lot tougher with the treason but I don't think you can underestimate the "they are our countrymen" reasoning for the different treatment of south from
Nazi Germany


I don't disagree with your assessment of some of the reasons why the Union chose to go soft on the south, but I do believe there is one element that's often overlooked or at least downplayed. White Americans by and large convinced themselves their treatment of black Americans was not just acceptable but justified and for their own good and have never been willing to listen to any condemnation or criticism. Protecting those people's feelings (to preserve the union as you state, or for whatever other reasons since) has always been treated as more important than justice or recognition of the victims. As long as protecting the feelings of white southerners, their descendents and their sympathizers continues to be prioritized over addressing the injustices perpetrated by them, America will continue to have issues relating to white supremacism and anti-black racism.


Getting back on topic do you think public confederate monuments should be
1. Destroyed
2. Put in a museum
3. Kept in public but modified to acknowledge lost cause context
4. Other

Should public displays of confederate flags and such be banned as done in Europe?

What about Confederate stuff displayed on private property?

On the first question the trend is towered options 2 and 3 and I support that. One should not try to erase history by destroying the statues. Where we have been which is public displays without context has also erased history.

As far as questions 2 and 3 America is way more generous than most as far as allowing the freedom of expression of hate. This will not be changing anytime soon but with generational and demographic changes plus some horrific outrages I can envision a hate speech amendment being added to the constitution. I would hope this does not happen. These protections are not meant to protect the popular but the unpopular. I see these negative effects of hate speech bans.
1. Freedom of expression has exposed some people for who they are, we lose that if hate speech is banned
2. Once you ban the horrible it becomes easier and easier and easier to ban the less bad, to expand the definition of horrible.
3. Autistics should not want banning minority opinion that is viewed as bad by the majority.
4. While the confederate flag might be banned the metaphorical white flag will be waved. It would be a signal that we are too weak to fight evil ideas off. If that is the case no ban will really work in the long run.

If you start confiscating private property like it or not the will become the dominant issue, the ”conspiracy theorists” will be proven not to be such nut jobs after all.


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cyberdad
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02 Dec 2019, 2:36 am

VegetableMan wrote:

So, the answer to my questions are "nothing" and "none." You simply copy and paste some stuff you hastily assembled that backs up your claim.

You see, this is why I simply detest the type of identity politics in which you so freely traffic. If you really cared about people of color, you'd be more sympathetic toward a war veteran running for president who wants to a stop endless war in the Middle East for, rather than walk lockstep with the political establishment she is fighting against.

Generalizations are not condusive to intelligent discourse. It only sows further divisions.

The "stuff" I posted needs to be addressed or the divisions you are anxious to avoid will continue into the next generation and the next....pretty sure the freed slaves back in 1865 would be shocked that 155 years later blacks are still second class citizens in 2020



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02 Dec 2019, 2:52 am

Calling blacks second class citizens is racist.

Some of most demeaning things I have heard said about blacks has come from whites who are supposedly fighting racism.



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02 Dec 2019, 4:25 am

EzraS wrote:
Some of most demeaning things I have heard said about blacks has come from whites who are supposedly fighting racism.


Really...have you read the Turner diaries?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

It's the equivalent of the bible for every right winger, it's content is as dangerous as anything ISIS could come up with....probably even worse

White supremacist mass murderers Anders Braevik, Dylan Roof and Brendon Tarrant carried a copy



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02 Dec 2019, 4:46 am

cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some of most demeaning things I have heard said about blacks has come from whites who are supposedly fighting racism.


Really...have you read the Turner diaries?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Turner_Diaries

It's the equivalent of the bible for every right winger, it's content is as dangerous as anything ISIS could come up with....probably even worse

White supremacist mass murderers Anders Braevik, Dylan Roof and Brendon Tarrant carried a copy


The bible for every right winger? I seriously doubt that. And your choice to deflect says a lot.



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02 Dec 2019, 4:53 am

Probably one of the Bibles of the EXTREME US right-wing.



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02 Dec 2019, 5:17 am

The left seems to want everyone on the right to be viewed as being racists nazis. Certainly it seems clear that's what cyberdad believes.



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02 Dec 2019, 5:25 am

EzraS wrote:
The left seems to want everyone on the right to be viewed as being racists nazis. Certainly it seems clear that's what cyberdad believes.


That's not fair, some on the right merely enable and provide cover for racists. :wink:

I'll respond to ASPartOfMe when I get home from work. :|


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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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02 Dec 2019, 5:50 am

The left seems to be the greater force in enabling racism since it needs to kept racism in full swing so that accusations against the right can carry the fullest impact.



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02 Dec 2019, 1:18 pm

cyberdad wrote:
VegetableMan wrote:

So, the answer to my questions are "nothing" and "none." You simply copy and paste some stuff you hastily assembled that backs up your claim.

You see, this is why I simply detest the type of identity politics in which you so freely traffic. If you really cared about people of color, you'd be more sympathetic toward a war veteran running for president who wants to a stop endless war in the Middle East for, rather than walk lockstep with the political establishment she is fighting against.

Generalizations are not condusive to intelligent discourse. It only sows further divisions.

The "stuff" I posted needs to be addressed or the divisions you are anxious to avoid will continue into the next generation and the next....pretty sure the freed slaves back in 1865 would be shocked that 155 years later blacks are still second class citizens in 2020


Perhaps you would do better with conversations about racism if you stayed away from tired. cliched, polemic rhetoric. When you try to brand a member of this forum with a BS term like "mainstream American white values, " expect to be called out on it.


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