F.B.I. Raids Trump's Mar-a-Lago estate

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Most of those indictments were for things not related to the investigations and hearings. Saying it was successful because people got indicted for something else is disingenuous.

Discounting the results of the investigations is disingenuous.

“Special counsel Robert Mueller’s team indicted or got guilty pleas from 34 people and three companies during their lengthy investigation.“

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... grand-jury

The list of people in that article and what they were actually indicted for, corroborates what I said.

Weren't over half for Russian agents? I count 28 related to Russian individuals or companies for crimes including conspiracy, ID theft, election interference, hacking, etc.

Of the Americans, we also have tax, campaign finance, identity theft, and financial crimes.

I'd say you're idea of "most" is wishful thinking.

These are real crimes, and the majority is on point to the reason for the investigation. I've left off the obstruction and lying, since they wouldn't exist without the investigation, but lets be honest: without the obstruction and lying, a whole lot more that you would have agreed was "on-point" would likely have been found. Apparently you believe they were obstructing and lying for plain old fun, and not because they were hiding something relevant. We'll never know, will we? But that doesn't mean your side "won." Even the Senate Republican investigation validated the Russian interference, echoing Mueller's report: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/s ... s-election. "The findings, including unflinching characterizations of furtive active between Trump associates and Russian operatives ..." I think the target got hit.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 04 Sep 2022, 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Charges outside of what the investigation is for, doesn't make the investigation successful. It means they had to settle for sloppy seconds. For the most part the Muller investigation did not achieve its primary goal.

I honestly don't care what you think the primary goal was. If anyone had the exact answer, there wouldn't have been anything to investigate.

Also ...

I had edited after you picked up the quote:

These are real crimes, and the majority is on point to the reason for the investigation. I've left off the obstruction and lying, since they wouldn't exist without the investigation, but lets be honest: without the obstruction and lying, a whole lot more that you would have agreed was "on-point" would likely have been found. Apparently you believe they were obstructing and lying for plain old fun, and not because they were hiding something relevant. We'll never know, will we? But that doesn't mean your side "won." Even the Senate Republican investigation validated the Russian interference, echoing Mueller's report: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/s ... s-election. From the article: "The findings, including unflinching characterizations of furtive active between Trump associates and Russian operatives ..." I think the target got hit.

Regardless, the word "nowhere" is demonstratively incorrect.

Also, let's be accurate. I never used the word "successful." I said your use of the word "nowhere" was inaccurate.

The buzz all over the internet and media was that Trump was going down for collusion. And his cronies were going down for collusion too. When it started becoming clear that wasn't going to happen, the backpedling and reinventing started. And indictments for things like lying to the FBI were made in lieu of indictments for collusion. That's just they way it was, no matter how much it gets dressed up.

I wasn't singling you out.

This is like cognitive dissonance, people based their identities around these stories, and so it's literally easier for them to buy into elaborate theories about why they were right all along than to accept that they were misled, it's a mental defense system meant to protect us from potentially damaging contradictions. You see it in cops and prosecutors who got the wrong guy sometimes, you'll have something like a DNA match proving that they had the wrong guy, but they can't accept that they were the bad guys, their whole identity is being the good guys, so the brain spins this protective cocoon of self deception, it's almost impossible to crack.

Very few of the full 34 indictments involved lying or obstruction. My list intentionally left those counts off so you couldn't make this claim.

You're level of interest in the 28 substantive indictments I mentioned seems staggeringly low.

But I guess we all get to choose our own opinions, and what we pay attention to, don't we?

Just ... 28 substantive indictments is good enough to make your "nowhere" statement come off as intentional partisan head-in-sand digging.

During the Mueller investigation the main talk throughout the internet and the media was Trump going to jail. There were slews of memes and politcal cartoon sketches of Trump in jail. So many were so sure Trump was going to jail. And that didn't happen. Now we have the Jan 6th investigations and hearings, combined with the "nuclear documents" investigations and hearings. And as usual the main talk throughout the internet and media is Trump is going to jail. And there's the usual slew of memes and cartoon sketches of Trump in jail. And when that doesn't pan out, there will be the usual pseudo-results postrd and disclaimers made. While Trump laughs with delight as usual.

I didn't even get to your list. I scanned through the list in the Vox article to refresh my memory on what all I went through after the investigation.

When I did click the link you provided I got: "Scientists create immortal human cells to understand how cancer works"

Ofc I hope he actually goes to jail, but maybe they’ll just sentence him to indefinite house arrest or something because he’s an old rich (so he says) white guy in America that used to have a high status job. (that he didn’t do while he went golfing instead.)

I don’t have a crystal ball and can’t say for certain what’s going to happen, but I’d be shocked if he was indicted for his crime spree. No man gets to go on such a crime spree against the USA and not face consequences - not even the former guy. It’d set the precedent that coups, treason, and seditious acts are all a-okay for former presidents to F around with against the USA and there’s zero chance that’s going to happen.

Maybe they’ll sentence him to house arrest in trump tower at least.. no golf course access.

The primary fantasy is Trump imprisoned one way or another.

The primary goal of the democrats and those working with them, is to keep Trump from becoming president again.

Just as their main goal previously was trying to get him out of office.

I think that complaints from democrats about trying to overturn an election and democracy, is viewed with a jaundiced eye by many. Because they tried so hard for so long to invalidate the 2916 election.

And now they're trying to impede a potential 2024 candidate from running.

And naturally all that makes many suspicious about the 2020 election. Which was unusual to say the least.

Last edited by Matrix Glitch on 05 Sep 2022, 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Oh.

Wonder how I messed that up ...

Trying again:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/s ... s-election