[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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25 Oct 2023, 7:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Which means that you tacitly agree that it cuts both ways- we shouldnt give a crap those Israelies murdered by HAMAS either. Indeed we shouldnt support Israel at all. .

I have given my answer, Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Israel isn't just defending itself. They are killing thousands of innocent people.

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funeralxempire
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25 Oct 2023, 7:30 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Which means that you tacitly agree that it cuts both ways- we shouldnt give a crap those Israelies murdered by HAMAS either. Indeed we shouldnt support Israel at all. .

I have given my answer, Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Israel isn't just defending itself. They are killing thousands of innocent people.

Israel has the right to "defend" itself, no matter how many innocents are killed due to their intentional acts.

But, the Palestinians have no right to defend themselves, or to form a state, or to be represented on the international level, or even to exist.

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Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.

TwilightPrincess
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25 Oct 2023, 7:33 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Which means that you tacitly agree that it cuts both ways- we shouldnt give a crap those Israelies murdered by HAMAS either. Indeed we shouldnt support Israel at all. .

I have given my answer, Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Israel isn't just defending itself. They are killing thousands of innocent people.

Maybe it's the double standards that are doing my head in. I just don't get it at all.

Apparently, we should only care about the 1400 who were killed in Israel AND the hostages. Palestinians, including children, just don't matter./s

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Fnord
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25 Oct 2023, 7:33 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Israel isn't just defending itself. They are killing thousands of innocent people.

Collateral damage is inevitable in times of war.

Besides, Hamas launched an attack in which thousands of Israeli citizens -- men, women, and infants -- were killed by bombing, shooting, burning, and beheading. Why anyone would ignore this in favor of blaming Israel is a mystery . . . or maybe just hatred of Jews and their homeland.

Hamas is the government of Palestine, making all Palestine citizens Hamas supporters and sympathizers.

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TwilightPrincess
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25 Oct 2023, 7:36 pm

Quote:

Hamas is the government of Palestine, making all Palestine citizens Hamas supporters and sympathizers.

I suppose that would include babies and children, huh? :roll:

I don't hate Jews or Israel. Note my signature.

There are other alternatives besides ignoring and genocide/mass destruction.

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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 25 Oct 2023, 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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25 Oct 2023, 7:41 pm

Fnord wrote:

Collateral damage is inevitable in times of war.

Especially when one side goes out of their way to make those deaths more likely by locating all of their weapons and military infrastructure not just within the civilian population, but in the locations most likely to cause excessive collateral damage, such as hospitals and mosques. Again, I've got my eyes wide open regarding Israeli misdeeds and general poor treatment of the Palestinians over the years, but anyone trying to draw any moral equivalence is a fool under the most generous metrics.

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cyberdad
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25 Oct 2023, 7:53 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Even if that’s how Hamas likes to spend rainy afternoons, the loss of life in the bombardment is not okay. Even if Hamas doesn’t value their citizens’ lives, it doesn’t mean they’re not valuable.

I’m just not getting this line of reasoning, and I’m seeing it over and over again on WP and elsewhere. It’s almost like an emotion-stopping technique or maybe it's an attempt to rationalize (trivialize?) the massive loss of human life, including that of children, that’s occurring.

Seriously take a step back, when HAMAS livestreamed shooting teenagers, killing babies and raping women do you think they didn't consider the consequences of their actions? The unprovoked terror attack and concurrent rocket attacks on Israeli towns and cities was designed to inflame the IDF to attack Gaza. it is not a question of "if HAMAS" (I noticed your language you try and diminish the role/responsibility of HAMAS in this whole conflict) HAMAS knew 100% what they were doing.
Not only do they use their own people as shields but they use them as pawns to take the full force of the IDF response. Every Palestinian child who died from Israeli bombing is equally dead because of HAMAS as much as the IDF.

There is no "if":

TwilightPrincess
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25 Oct 2023, 8:05 pm

Don't tell me to take a step back. I am entitled to my opinion and will express it as I see fit. I think the actions of Hamas and the IDF are deplorable. Period. I do not approve of the murder of innocent people, especially children, under any circumstances. Period. The fact that Hamas was using human shields and killing their own citizens does not make the behavior of the IDF okay.

Quote:

I noticed your language you try and diminish the role/responsibility of HAMAS in this whole conflict

No, I don't and haven't. Reread this thread and see the numerous posts I have made denouncing Hamas's behavior. Do NOT accuse me of diminishing their behavior or supporting them in any way.

Note my signature. The false dilemma fallacy seems to be a problem for a lot of folks.

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cyberdad
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25 Oct 2023, 9:29 pm

If you follow the narrative of preventing collateral damage in Gaza (which BTW has become a popular narrative across the western world) then that aids HAMAS. HAMAS know that they win either way. If israel does what the anti-IDF lobby want and negotiate with HAMAS to release hostages then they win (HAMAS will keep the hostages permanently).

If the IDF attack Gaza killing civilians then HAMAS wins.

As I said before this is a no-win situation for Israel. In the end the only option is rescue the hostages.

TwilightPrincess
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25 Oct 2023, 9:47 pm

Most people are pro-rescuing hostages although the strategies for doing so may differ. They may not always involve killing thousands of innocent people.

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goldfish21
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25 Oct 2023, 11:08 pm

cyberdad wrote:

I dunno about that.

I listened to some newsbroadcast segment on my drive home and some journalist/talking head was going on about how Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties by warning civilians of strikes via multiple communication channels/broadcasts/texts/emails etc but that they must eliminate Hamas. If tons of people hear that sort of messaging, Israel won't really lose much in the way of reputation points with most of the world.. people will just accept that Israel had to eliminate Hamas and unfortunately not all civilians could get out of the way of all strikes in time.

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for supporting trump. Because doing so is deplorable.

goldfish21
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25 Oct 2023, 11:43 pm

https://fb.watch/nVF7wWvQMu/

Seems an escalating war - and likely larger scale war, are inevitable.

Tinfoil hat time:

It wouldn't surprise me if all these a**holes got together and decided we needed a good war to get the world economy kickstarted again post covid. Lots of manufacturing jobs..

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envirozentinel
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26 Oct 2023, 12:02 am

Fnord wrote:

Hamas is the government of Palestine, making all Palestine citizens Hamas supporters and sympathizers.

I have no time of day to give Hamas or any killers of innocent civilians especially kids either. But this last paragraph is unfair as it seems to imply that evil or dictatorial governments all over the world are supported by all their citizens, even children, who are too young to vote and didn't choose their government. A good percentage of adults in many countries don't get to either. It is like implying that all Russians support Putin.

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Last edited by Cornflake on 26 Oct 2023, 7:09 am, edited 2 times in total.: Added quote name

goldfish21
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26 Oct 2023, 1:41 am

envirozentinel wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Hamas is the government of Palestine, making all Palestine citizens Hamas supporters and sympathizers.

I have no time of day to give Hamas or any killers of innocent civilians especially kids either. But this last paragraph is unfair as it seems to imply that evil or dictatorial governments all over are in the world are supported by all their citizens, even children, who are too young to vote and didn't choose their government. A good percentage of adults in many countries don't get to either. It is like implying that all Russians support Putin.

Yeah, this.

Reminds of of a Persian bouncer at a bar I worked at 18 years ago. When discussing things Iran was up to, he just gestured and said “It’s the gov-ern-ment, what can people do?” Implying that he doesn’t support them and many Iranians don’t, either.. but there’s nothing they can do.

Even in democracies, not all Canadians support every decision trudeau makes. Not all Americans support all of Biden’s decisions etc etc.

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naturalplastic
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26 Oct 2023, 2:50 am

cyberdad wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Which means that you tacitly agree that it cuts both ways- we shouldnt give a crap those Israelies murdered by HAMAS either. Indeed we shouldnt support Israel at all. .

I have given my answer, Israel has the right to defend themselves.

Exactly. You have NO answer.

I never said that Israel has no right to defend itself.

YOU are saying we should ignore all injustices in the world because ...we ignore some injustices in the world. There fore we should ignore what both sides are doing (the atrocities of both sides). Let Israel defend itself, but we Americans should pull the rug out from under them by cutting off aid...because...YOU are saying we shouldnt care about Israeli babies being killed...because Tribe X in Burma is also being butchered. If we ignore whats done to Palestians then we should (by your logic) ALSO ignore what was done to Israelies too.

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26 Oct 2023, 4:20 am

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