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Fnord
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06 Mar 2020, 10:17 am

Magna wrote:
Why would China lock down entire cities if the mortality rate is less than 3%?
Why would any government do so and then prohibit even electronic contact with the outside world?


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ouinon2
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06 Mar 2020, 10:39 am

eikonabridge wrote:
ouinon2 wrote:
Numbers keep growing, slowly, everywhere, but there are few or no new dramatic developments, disappointingly like many zombie/plague films and TV series in which discoveries and revelations dry up rapidly, replaced by "management".

You remind me of kraftiekortie and cyberdad. When there were little reporting, they thought things were coming to an end. No reporting unfortunately meant there were cases developing beneath the radar. ...

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

The number of confirmed cases is not a good measure. Whether a country is doing well or not, should be measured by the ratio (number of samples tested)/(number of confirmed cases). Unfortunately, they don't publish that number. Another excellent ratio is (number of confirmed cases admitted to AIIR)/(number of confirmed cases hospitalized), where AIIR stands for Airborne Infection Isolation Room. Again, they don't publish this number, either. In Taiwan, those numbers are 400:1 and 100%, respectively.

At any rate, Iran just had 1,234 new cases yesterday.

Thank you. Yes, I agree, the data that the various countries are issuing is indeed rather unsatisfactory, with either very little or very inconsistent testing figures, painting a probably very unreliable picture of what's really happening. I have also been referring to the Worldometer site for info but it can only show what has been publically/officially reported.

It isn't that I think "things are coming to an end" so much as that I'm disappointed that the virus doesn't seem to be doing anything surprising anymore. It seems to be doing what the most reputable scientists, medics and researchers said that it would do. It's being predictable. Are you suggesting that it isn't, that it is up to something undetected?

The trouble is that if it is, spreading undetected to any great extent, without killing people, that means it is much less lethal than the 3.4% that the WHO suspect, or even the 1.4% which recent Chinese team have suggested. Unless it is passing as influenza, or other respiratory diseases. Have scientists seen an unusual increase in those seasonal illnesses?



blooiejagwa
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06 Mar 2020, 11:05 am

Fnord wrote:
Magna wrote:
Why would China lock down entire cities if the mortality rate is less than 3%?
Why would any government do so and then prohibit even electronic contact with the outside world?


That's like India did to Kashmiris last yr. Idk if its still going on. But the reason was different. They just wanted to rape threaten torture kill n disfigure n injure n do it without documentation. Bcuz it was documented and shared online in the previous yrs n there was a tiny teeeeensy bit of 'international outrage' they wised up.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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06 Mar 2020, 11:18 am

eikonabridge wrote:
Magna wrote:
Why would China lock down entire cities if the mortality rate is less than 3%?

Why would any government offer autism services, if the prevalence rate is less than 3%?



Because it is way more dangerous than just “3%” death; the 3% figure is of those who are *hospitalized*; but the severe cases are 20%.
If hospitals are out of rooms then humanity is screwed.



blooiejagwa
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06 Mar 2020, 11:22 am

^hospitalized due to co-morbid things or autism itself? N long-term?
Just curious. (Bcuz my kid with severe has been hospitalized numerous times IN SPITE OF government help ...but not ever more than a week.)

Is there a link about it?


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eikonabridge
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06 Mar 2020, 11:29 am

ouinon2 wrote:
The trouble is that if it is, spreading undetected to any great extent, without killing people, that means it is much less lethal than the 3.4% that the WHO suspect, or even the 1.4% which recent Chinese team have suggested. Unless it is passing as influenza, or other respiratory diseases. Have scientists seen an unusual increase in those seasonal illnesses?

Taiwan's case #34 is a good example. The patient was admitted to hospital as a regular pneumonia case. The case was only discovered because Taiwan decided to retroactively double check on all hospitalized pneumonia cases. So far, it was discovered that 8 more people were infected through case #34. That is Taiwan. In other countries, case #34 would have either have recovered or died, without people knowing that the patient actually had COVID-19. That case only caused 8 additional cases. In other countries, it would have been a few dozen cases before one of them is discovered by the healthcare system. By then, it'll be hard to trace all people contacted.

Another case is a recent Australia case. The musician performed in Taiwan, he had a running nose. He was checked in Taiwan, but the doctor thought it was just regular flu. It was only when the musician returned to Australia that he was confirmed as having COVID-19. So, the entire symphony hall has now been desinfected, and several dozen people are now being monitored in Taiwan.

So, to answer your question: yes, plenty of cases are mistaken as regular flu or pneumonia. Those cases don't move the needle of the meter of flu cases, since there are so many more flu cases out there. However, by the time they move the needle, it's usually already too late.


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06 Mar 2020, 11:37 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
eikonabridge wrote:
Magna wrote:
Why would China lock down entire cities if the mortality rate is less than 3%?

Why would any government offer autism services, if the prevalence rate is less than 3%?



Because it is way more dangerous than just “3%” death; the 3% figure is of those who are *hospitalized*; but the severe cases are 20%.
If hospitals are out of rooms then humanity is screwed.



That is exactly what our Minister of Health stated. We are trying to avoid mass, simultaneous infections because there are not enough respirators and available hospital facilities and this would be a catastrophe. We are isolating the country to avoid this, closing all entry, those returning from abroad go into immediate isolation.


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eikonabridge
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06 Mar 2020, 11:41 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If hospitals are out of rooms then humanity is screwed.

Yep. That's the point that people are not getting. Once the AIIRs (Airborne Infection Isolation Rooms) run out, you start to use regular hospital rooms, and the chance of infection to doctors/nurses increase. You will have doctors/nurses infecting other patients, so what can you do? You will need to lock down the hospitals. Effectively disconnecting the hospitals from the outside world, and ... oops, suddenly you won't even have doctors and nurses to take care of other patients. When that happens, they won't be able to lock down all the infected hospitals. What does that mean? That means we move over to the free-virus-for-all scenario: doctors and nurses will continue to treat patients and continue to spread the virus to other non-COVID-19 patients. Not an ideal situation, but what else can you do? Some researchers estimate that at the end of the day, 70% of world population will get infected. That's a bit like the situation of H1N1, but it's just the mortality rate will be higher. Good thing is next year we will some vaccines to minimize the symptoms and the spread of the virus.


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Fnord
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06 Mar 2020, 11:59 am

eikonabridge wrote:
... Good thing is next year we will some vaccines to minimize the symptoms and the spread of the virus.
If there IS a next year.

Image


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06 Mar 2020, 12:25 pm

There will be a next year. The world will join forces against this virus and stop murdering each other mindlessly for a while.


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ouinon2
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06 Mar 2020, 12:28 pm

eikonabridge wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
If hospitals are out of rooms then humanity is screwed.
Yep. That's the point that people are not getting. Once the AIIRs (Airborne Infection Isolation Rooms) run out, you start to use regular hospital rooms, and the chance of infection to doctors/nurses increase. You will have doctors/nurses infecting other patients, so what can you do? You will need to lock down the hospitals. Effectively disconnecting the hospitals from the outside world, and ... oops, suddenly you won't even have doctors and nurses to take care of other patients. When that happens, they won't be able to lock down all the infected hospitals. What does that mean? That means we move over to the free-virus-for-all scenario: doctors and nurses will continue to treat patients and continue to spread the virus to other non-COVID-19 patients. Not an ideal situation, but what else can you do? Some researchers estimate that at the end of the day, 70% of world population will get infected.

Ah, is that where the projected % figures for infection come from then; from calculating a probable rate of "natural"/uninterrupted transmission, minus the effects of containment, then the likely levels of chaos, plus the increased spread rate after containment collapses, etc? ....

And is that why the projections range from 40% - 80% infection rates? ie they depend on how well containment works, and not so much on how infectious the organism itself is, which would otherwise/"naturally" infect most people.

And why the mortality rates range from less than 1% in South Korea to around 3% in China and nearly 4% currently in Italy; they depend massively on health service capacity, which depends on the various social and political contexts.

I am reminded of the belief/perspective that disability is socially constructed/a social construct; how disabled you are/seem depends on the way the world around you is designed. So this virus is, within certain parameters determined by its biology, only as deadly ( infectious and fatal ), as the state of any society allows it to be. The figures, %, etc are compound, mash-ups or products of not just the attributes of the virus itself but of the societies that it finds itself in.

:)) :) Humans and their political systems etc will decide how lethal coronavirus is going to be. In some hypothetical place it might have barely any impact. OK. Hmmmmmmmm ....



Last edited by ouinon2 on 06 Mar 2020, 12:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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06 Mar 2020, 12:36 pm

Once a vaccine is developed, the drug company OWNS the formula.
They decide how much $ to sell either the vaccine, or the formula to the government.
THEN production begins...how long it will take to manufacture ENOUGH vaccine is unknown.
The first batches will be spoken for; the president, chiefs of staff, heads of state...
Then, I would assume, medical personnel; we need enough of them to care for people, AND we need them non/contagious.
When the vaccine becomes available to the general public, AND in adequate quantities will be anyone’s guess.
Tragically, some pharmaceutical company (s)
And their leadership will profit tremendously from this terrible time.


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06 Mar 2020, 3:43 pm

33 confirmed COVID-19 cases in New York, officials say

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Gov. Andrew Cuomo announced additional cases on Friday afternoon, saying they all have a connection to a 50-year-old lawyer hospitalized with the disease in Westchester County.

Of the 33 people with positive results, five of them have been hospitalized. The governor said their conditions continue to improve.

Cuomo also announced that 4,000 people across the state are in quarantine as a precaution -- that includes 2,700 in NYC, 1,000 in Westchester and 70 in Nassau County.

There are 44 people in mandatory quarantine across the state, including 33 in Westchester, nine in NYC and one in Nassau County.

Eyewitness News also learned Friday morning that a rabbi is among the patients in Westchester County.

The rabbi of Young Israel of New Rochelle, the synagogue at the center of the coronavirus outbreak, had tested positive. He was already in self-quarantine. He also teaches classes at Yeshiva University in Washington Heights.

"I have the virus and am doing reasonably well," he wrote in a letter to the congregation. "Admittedly, it is hard to comply with the burden the State has placed on us. But as we see, despite all these measures the amount of people testing positive is increasing. We all have to be careful to comply. I have heard alarming reports that some of our members who should remain in quarantine have repeatedly violated it. This, obviously, is irresponsible."

The case on Long Island is a 42-year-old man in Uniondale, Nassau County, who is hospitalized.

De Blasio said that the individuals in NYC are a woman in her 80s and man in his 40s. They are both hospitalized in critical condition.

Both have substantial pre-existing conditions, officials said. The man has respiratory issues related to smoking and vaping and the woman is an "advanced age."


Unhinged NYC train commuter sprays Asian man with deodorizer, fearing he has coronavirus
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A man was caught on video spraying what looked like a fabric deodorizer at an Asian straphanger on a Brooklyn train amid coronavirus fears, and the incident is now being investigated as a possible hate crime, officials said Thursday.

A video of the spraydown posted on social media captures a man spritzing what looked like a bottle of Febreze around an Asian man on a N train as it headed into the Eighth Ave. station about 9 a.m. Wednesday.

I don’t want him under me,” the straphanger says on the video, talking to other train riders who are yelling at him to stop. “Tell him to move.”

When the victim, standing by the doors of the still-moving train, doesn’t budge, the man starts spraying him, the 29-second clip shows.

“Move,” the suspect said. “I asked nicely. You’re going to move."

The spritzing straphanger’s actions outraged the other train passengers, who felt he targeted his victim because the coronavirus started in China.

“There’s not a single confirmed case of an Asian infected in NYC,” wrote Celia Au, who posted the video on Twitter. “Stop discriminating cause the virus definitely doesn’t.”

NYPD Chief of Detectives Rodney Harrison said someone called 911 during the incident. But by the time cops arrived, the train had departed to the next station and no witnesses could be found.

“We were unable to take a report,” Harrison said. “We did receive the social media post and our Hate Crime Task Force is looking into it."


Gap closes NYC office after employee contracts coronavirus
Quote:
Gap closed its New York corporate office Friday after an employee tested positive for the coronavirus.

Staffers of the preppy clothing brand were spotted coming in and out of the 55 Thomas St. building in Tribeca to collect their belongings, with some using hand sanitizer and kicking the door open as they exited.

“There’s a person that has coronavirus,” said one woman, who wouldn’t give her name.

“Basically, it’s low-risk if you didn’t work with this person, medium-risk if you did, but the offices are closed.”

Another Gap worker confirmed: “Somebody has the virus.”

In an email to staffers obtained by Bloomberg, the retailer said it was “taking extreme precaution” and closing the building.

“Employees should work from home until further notice,” the company said.


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jimmy m
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06 Mar 2020, 4:44 pm

The EPA has released a list of disinfectants that can be used to effectively remove the coronavirus from surfaces. Here is a link.
EPA’s Registered Antimicrobial Products for Use Against Novel Coronavirus SARS-CoV-2, the Cause of COVID-19


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06 Mar 2020, 4:48 pm

Is anyone here in the US seeing a shortage of Lysol etc,?The shelves are the same here.You can get generic Purell for a buck.


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06 Mar 2020, 5:00 pm

eikonabridge wrote:
ouinon2 wrote:
You remind me of kraftiekortie and cyberdad. When there were little reporting, they thought things were coming to an end.


I'm not sure I ever said that? I did however quote a top microbiologist in Queensland Australia who used epidemiological data to predict around 50% of Australians will be infected and (as already been pointed out) that the virus will be with us forever like a number of other common flu viruses. The common flus annually kill those with immunodeficiencies, the very young and very old.

I am however confused by the discrepancy in the fatality statistics and the infection data which suggests more than one strain and at least one strain that appears to act like the HIV virus in terms of the damage it causes to lung tissue (this includes young study hospital staff). While I respect your penchant for numbers/math ypu are neither a microbiologist, psychologist or an epidemiologist so please be careful not to come across as arrogant.