[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.
The_Face_of_Boo
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Interesting article and research on dehumanization and how it relates to racial prejudice in America although it’s obviously applicable to other locales. The specific breakdown is probably similar in countries that are like America culturally and ethnically. Other countries will have different results. It's not uncommon for people to dehumanize the supposed Other, perhaps because of our innate tribal tendencies.
Psychologists are no strangers to this subject. But the prevailing wisdom has been that most people are not willing to admit to having prejudice against others.
Kteily suspected otherwise. And so he and his colleagues created a new way to measure people’s levels of blatant dehumanization of other groups. It’s not subtle.
In Kteily’s studies, participants — typically groups of mostly white Americans — are shown this (scientifically inaccurate) image of a human ancestor slowly learning how to stand on two legs and become fully human. And then they are told to rate members of different groups — such as Muslims, Americans, and Swedes — on how evolved they are on a scale of 0 to 100.

Americans rate other Americans as being highly evolved, with an average score in the 90s. But disturbingly, many also rated Muslims, Mexican immigrants, and Arabs as less evolved.
“We typically see scores that average 75, 76,” for Muslims, Kteily says. “Which I think is a lot on a scale that’s so extreme.” And about a quarter of study participants will rate Muslims on a score of 60 or below.
This shows that perception of “otherness” is like a dial in our minds that can be turned on. That would be troubling enough, if the research also didn’t make two predictions about dehumanization’s power to make the world a more hostile place.

People who dehumanize are more likely to blame Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few perpetrators. They are more likely to support policies restricting the immigration of Arabs to the United States. People who dehumanize low-status or marginalized groups score higher on a measure called “social dominance orientation,” meaning that they favor inequality among groups in society, with some groups dominating others.
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... -explained
Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 26 Oct 2023, 9:00 pm, edited 6 times in total.

I wonder how that compares to the general Lebanese population.
I would say for general population it would be 50%; slightly more to the 2nd option. Atheists are not very representatives.
Hence why I predict a split of Lebanon; like the two Koreas. This next conflict is looming very clearly.
Atheists aren’t very representative in America, either. My family doesn’t think the war in Palestine is that big of a deal because the good people (according to them a very small minority) will wake up in Paradise. Of course, my family is not representative of most Americans. (Thank goodness.

Things certainly aren’t looking good in your neck of the woods. Maybe you should consider building or looking for a portal to another dimension. I’m sure cyberdad has some good information on the topic. We were just talking about that in a different thread the other day.
Using that metric you were a Trump supporter and sympathiser and were complicit with all the crap he did , hang your head in shame /jk.
Nobody is anyone's accomplice.
The parameter to understand is the reaction will bring consequences and these could imply the intervention of other Nations.
Palestinians might not be there, then the reaction would focus on the Israelis, who could be destroyed.
Reactions involve cause and effect.
Some are pre-ordered.
Be careful because the war has never been local (nor the guerrilla warfare).
But it should not be encouraged, nor justified, ever.
Have you ever wondered if the ultimate goal of these (horrendous) actions is not to destroy both, including the Israelis, to change geopolitics in that area of the world too?
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Regarding the sentence, as written, it leads to dissociation, children are the victims and on both sides and not only them
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A different interpretation of that post could be that having been born there, they certainly did not have the possibility to choose a side and a child does not know at all what is right or not right to do, the teaching is to do as he is told has been told to do, perhaps he means this concept, which is different from everyone being of the same thought.
To be able to choose you need to have the ability to choose and they don't have it.
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Taking sides with one or the other belligerent is wrong, profoundly wrong.
Let's not forget that, if anything, children are always the victims of endless wars.
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My feeling is that other dictatorial states want to eliminate them, but both factions are fighting.
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Two things can be done
1) Say that one or the other has motivations to kill other human beings
*Because remember that human life has no price, and it is not a game.
In some posts it seems that this is not understood.
2) It's not that the conflict can be stopped, but it must be stopped.
*Fierce democracies and dictatorships are mentioned.
1) In a democracy you can choose a side
and there are generally no devastating wars to prevent this.
There is not a dictator, but a democratically elected person, who will perhaps only last for his mandate and that's it.
2) In a dictatorship you cannot choose.
The only proposed reality is that of always and only being right.
3) I hope I'm wrong but one party that is now much stronger can eliminate another forever.
He could suffer the same fate later.
The consequential logic could lead to the destruction of Israel too.
You could find nations that would quickly cancel it.
An attack could turn out to be a Harakiri.
_________________
Nothing happens before a dream.
(Carl Sandburg)
It's no secret that many Palestinians have several decades supported an armed struggle against Israel
https://www.newarab.com/news/amid-israe ... resistance
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conf ... cle-746400
It does not require mind reading, they openly want this.
I recall spending time with Palestinian students in Malaysia and they invited me to parties where they openly talked about eventually taking back Israel pre-1948. That was the goal of the PLO to return land that Palestinians had pre-1948 (not sure why people have amnesia about this?). What differs in 2023 is many Palestinians might not want to engage in fighting themselves but they do financially support HAMAS through their various funding activities
Last edited by Cornflake on 27 Oct 2023, 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.: De-fanged the opening statement
According to your second source:
Once again, you are making generalizations about a group of people. You could say that "some" or "many" Palestinians feel a certain way but making generalized/blanket statements just hurts your argument. Something else to keep in mind: 47.3% of the Palestinian population is under the age of 18. They would not have been included in the percentages for good reason, but they make up a huge portion of the population.
The reality is that people, especially oppressed people, can be indoctrinated to think a certain way. No one should die for their beliefs. I don't believe in thought crimes. The only people who deserve to die are those directly responsible for the attacks - Hamas.
Something to keep in mind: on page 9 of this thread, The_Walrus said: "Do not suggest that any civilian deserves to die."
Pretty grim stuff. Have Italians embraced their history as Germany has?
No!
Italy is still convinced of those ideals.
Politically in Europe we are not alone.
The right has been in power for over a year.
In words yes. in reality, however, no.
Italy has always had Communism as the enemy to fight.
The Italians were and are convinced Fascists.
In words we are different.
But this is in much of Europe.
Few excluded.
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In 1922 Benito Mussolini brought the National Fascist Party to power in Italy following the March on Rome on 28 October.
Mussolini repeatedly declared his desire to make the Mediterranean an "Italian lake" (Mare nostrum) and praised the war, saying "Although words are beautiful things, rifles, machine guns, planes, and cannons are even more beautiful." Allied intervention in Russian Revolution (1918—1920)
Italy participated in the Allied intervention in the Russian Revolution (to try to subvert the October Revolution, or at least mitigate its outcomes perceived as unfavorable to national interests) with the Redeemed Legion of Siberia, the Italian Expeditionary Force in the Far East and the Italian Expeditionary Force in Murmania. Fiume Battle (1919) The Fiume Battle consisted of the rebellion of some departments of the Royal Army (about 2,600 men including infantry and artillery) with the aim of occupying the Adriatic city of Fiume, disputed between the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Organized by a predominantly nationalist political front and led by the poet Gabriele D'Annunzio, the expedition reached Fiume on 12 September 1919, proclaiming its annexation to the Kingdom of Italy. The occupation of the D'Annunzio "legionaries" lasted 16 months with ups and downs , including the proclamation of the Italian Regency of Carnaro. Having the aim of influencing the International Peace Conference, the Fiume Enterprise reached its epilogue with the approval of the Treaty of Rapallo. The opposition of the D'Annunzio supporters to the application of the treaty led the Giolitti government to intervene with force, evicting Fiume during the days of Christmas 1920. Filippo Tommaso Marinetti, during the period of his presence in Fiume in September 1919, defined the authors of the feat deserters forward. Corfu Crisis (1923)
In the Corfu crisis, Italy, by bombing and temporarily occupying the Greek island of Corfu, forced Greece to pay compensation and apologize for the assassination of an Italian general. This incident well represented the aggressive attitude of the new fascist regime. Conquest of Ethiopia (1935–1936) The Ethiopian War was supposed to be Mussolini's way of washing away the shame of the embarrassing defeat that Italy had suffered at the hands Ethiopian in the War of Abyssinia (1896), and it was also an opportunity to expand the Italian empire by taking one of the last areas of Africa not controlled by other European powers, as well as distracting the plebs from economic worries. General Emilio de Bono noted that preparations for the invasion of Ethiopia (Abyssinia) dated back to 1932 when roads were already being built from Italian Somalia into Ethiopian territory, although Mussolini constantly stated that he was not a "collector of deserts" and that he would never thought of invading.
The Ethiopians contested this preparation for war and it led to the Ual Ual incident. Mussolini spoke of "unprovoked aggression" by Ethiopia and Italian forces invaded on 3 October 1935, led by de Bono. In just three days the Italians conquered Adua, carrying out the first massive aerial bombardment of civilians in history. In December Pietro Badoglio replaced de Bono (judged too prudent) in command of the invasion. Violating the Geneva Convention, Italian forces committed war crimes by making extensive use of chemical warfare against Ethiopian forces and, more seriously, against civilians and also by attacking Ethiopian, British, and Swedish Red Cross facilities. On March 31, 1936, the Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia launched a desperate final counterattack, but the Italians, who managed to obtain prior information, defeated him at the Battle of Maychew, always making use of chemical weapons. A few days later the capital Addis Ababa fell, allowing the Italy to annex the country on May 7, and to proclaim King Victor Emmanuel III emperor of Ethiopia.
The last Italian possessions in East Africa were unified into the colony Africa Orientale Italiana. Intervention in the Spanish Civil War (1936–1939) On 17 July 1936, Francisco Franco and other forces of Nationalist Spain waged a revolt against Republican Spain that would last three years , called the Spanish Civil War (in common Italian parlance, "Spanish War"). Franco was quite sure of obtaining the support of the Italians and Germans for his Bando nacional, to whom he sent his emissaries for this purpose on 20 July.
Both in fact promised aid, and sent the Volunteer Troop Corps and the Condor Legion respectively, as well as armaments and planes. Mussolini was particularly committed, sending a total of 37,000 men and numerous planes to ensure that this "campaign against communism" was successful.
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The international press began to increase pressure on Mussolini after Italian troops suffered a major defeat at Guadalajara, which caused Mussolini to send regular troops in place of the militia to fight in Spain, ultimately damaging the Italian economy with the expense of a war that according to Mussolini would end any day now.
The war, among other things, distracted Italy from the Anschluss, the German annexation of Austria which theoretically should have constituted a breaking point between the two powers, considering Austria's alliance with fascist Italy.
It was thought that the war would be a testing ground for Italian tactics, an opportunity to fill every flaw in the system, but even in the Second World War Italy continued to use the same tactics as many years before, unlike the revolutionary tactics implemented by Germany.
Conquest of Albania (1939)
While Germany was occupying Czechoslovakia, Mussolini, not to be outdone, began his invasion of Albania. Albania had long been politically dominated by Italy and several officers in its armed forces were actually Italian.
The Albanian king Zog was quite seriously in debt and was looking for help from Italy, so Mussolini sent Foreign Minister Gian Galeazzo Ciano to him with a list of demands, which Ciano himself described as unacceptable.
When Zog refused, Mussolini ordered him to accept by 7 April 1939, otherwise Italy would invade Albania. The invaders had already landed before that moment. General Alfredo Guzzoni carried out the invasion with two divisions of Bersaglieri and a battalion of tanks, encountering little resistance, although various organizational problems emerged in the Italian armed forces.
King Zog took refuge in Greece, gained asylum in Athens, and eventually moved to London. On 12 April the Albanian parliament ratified the union with Italy, conferring the crown of Albania on Vittorio Emanuele III.
Pact of Steel
On 22 May 1939 the Pact of Steel was signed by Gian Galeazzo Ciano and the German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, which effectively sanctioned the alliance between the two powers.
Despite the fairly good relations that had existed between the two states, many Italians opposed this alliance, considering it a submission to Germany, and knowing that Italian interests would probably not be favored in the relationship. The alliance also technically obliged Italy to participate in any war that Germany was involved in, so it could have asserted this legal situation at any time, but this never actually happened.
Second World War
The same topic in detail: Italy in the Second World War.
Non-belligerence
Nazi Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939, but Italy remained neutral for another ten months, despite being one of the Axis Powers.
The undersecretary for war production, Carlo Favagrossa, had estimated that Italy perhaps would not be ready for such an important conflict before October 1942, at least.
This had been made clear during the Italian-German negotiations for the Pact of Steel, where it was stipulated that none of the contracting parties should make war without the other before 1943.
Although Italy was considered a great power, the Its industrial sector was relatively weak in comparison with the other major European powers.
Italian industry was no more than 15% of that of France or Britain in militarily decisive areas such as car production: the number of cars in Italy before the war stood at around 372,000, compared to around 2,500,000 in Great Britain and France.
The lack of a stronger automotive industry made it difficult for Italy to mechanize its military. Italy still had an economy based mainly on agriculture, with a demographic structure more akin to a developing country (high illiteracy, poverty, rapid population growth with a high share of adolescents) and a proportion of income gross national derived from industry lower than that of Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Sweden, not to mention the other great powers. In terms of strategic materials, in 1940 Italy produced 4.4, 0.01, 1.2 and 2.1 t of coal, crude oil, iron ore and steel, respectively.
For comparison, Great Britain produced 224.3, 11.9, 17.7, and 13.0 t; and Germany 364.8, 8.0, 29.5 and 21.5 t of coal, crude oil, iron ore and steel, respectively. Most raw material needs could only be met by import and there was no initiative to set aside reserves of essential materials before entering the war.
you know the Germans also paid with their image.
We didn't appear and we were like them.
Identical, we did the same things, we opened the way for them because Nazism didn't exist and we created Fascism.
Which is still strong, very strong in both countries.
They became the bad guys in the situation, we became the good guys who weren't good at all.
Italy was used to winning the wars it fought.
He won the first war with the right allies.
Then he made others, too many.
This weakens us.
The Germans betrayed us and entered the war without our consent.
Bear in mind that Mussolini had great respect for Sir Winston Churchill and an absolute friendship with Adolf Hitler.
We had agreed with Hitler ,to three years to prepare for World War II and they betrayed the agreement.
The Germans almost always lose wars, although their waging the Second World War probably has no equals in the modern world as a military and strategic organization.
I only know that Italians would never have chosen to marginalize Jewish people, they were Italian like us.
And the story was immense.
Even the wife of Enrico Fermi who took part with other Italian scientists in the Manhattan project and was initially decisive, I believe, in a preliminary meeting with Openheimer and Von Neuman in N.Y. because he quickly solved a practical problem about the atomic pile.
Before World War II, we fought a lot of wars.
No Allied Power and Germany made one instead.
One thing must be said: although with a look that was much more disturbing than Hitler's glassy gaze, Mussolini had a remarkable dialogue with Churchill.
Of many yers.
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Nuclear power was born in Germany.
The Italians first learned then found some geniuses that went much further than the Germans.
Some scientists, by the way, one very important one abandoned his research much earlier than him. but from the autograph writings in Leipzig where he remained for six months, it can be deduced which side he was on.
.
He was against what would lead to atomic bombs.
But it wasn't (again from the writings, autographs and deposited in the State archives, he wrote that 600 thousand Jews could not command over 60 million German citizens.
The letter is handwritten in his unmistakable handwriting.
And signed.
He was autistic.
He only wrote down the results in mini notebooks and cigarette packets which he then destroyed.
To prevent the Italian and German secret police.
To tell you his value, Fermi Nobel Prize winner used an entire university blackboard to solve a nuclear physics problem, Majorana two sheets of a notebook.
The calculations occurred before Fermi and minutes.
Fermi was his professor and he was 20 years old at the time.
Fermi acted by sending him to Germany and in doing so his help yielded three Nobel prizes based on his ideas from a previous decade.
Werner Karl Heisenberg, Enrico Fermi, and Emilio Segrè.
Italy usually won wars
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Wars are horrendous and those who seek excuses for the right reason are involuntarily complicit in them.
In wars each side commits immense atrocities.
If anything, let's fight for a world of peace
_________________
Nothing happens before a dream.
(Carl Sandburg)
Last edited by Cornflake on 27 Oct 2023, 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.: Added "offtopic" tags
The_Face_of_Boo
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ASPartOfMe
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46 pages. Time restate what I said earlier and discuss factors that have been given short shrift or ignored.
Let’s assume that Hamas is intentionally using Palestinians as a human shields on a mass scale and this means the Palestinian civilian deaths are mostly Hamas’s fault. It will be the Israeli decision to use Israeli arms that kills tens of thousands of innocents. No getting around that. They do have the option to do what so many want them to do, just stop. Hamas will have gotten away with it at the cost of many innocents. But the judgement will have been made that the cost was worth it to save more innocents. But will it have saved more innocents?
First thing that would happen is massive worldwide victory celebrations symbolically dancing on the graves of the people murdered. Not too many Israelis are going to bother going back to their homes in south and that is true for the north also. Governments and head of terrorist organizations do not think in terms of it would be nice to strive for peace they make decisions based on assumed strengths and weaknesses. You are Hamas, you are Iran, you are thinking those westerns colonizers are weak, their military can do shock and awe on us and it will hurt like hell, but if we hang in there we will outlast them. Maybe, but maybe at some point Israel and America decide we f****d up, enough already. Either way arguably more innocents die than would have if Israel invaded.
And this goes beyond the mideast. China has been buzzing U.S. aircraft and intimidating Philippines ships. We have treaty obligations to defend the Philippines. I think this is China testing the U.S. because of our internal division's and the appearance that Israel has not invaded because of U.S. pressure.
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US is pressuring Israel not to invade?

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No

The_Face_of_Boo
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The_Face_of_Boo
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Same .
I’ve already seen too many dead babies and injured on the news.I can’t even imagine being there on the ground.
A father holding up his two month old dead baby rocking him and asking, “What did he do?”

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