16 Jun 2015, 4:26 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As far as race being a social construct is concerned: it should be remembered that as late as the late nineteenth century/early twentieth century, most considered Italians, especially Sicilians, to be non-white. But today, no one is going to even entertain that notion, even though it's widely known that the Moors who had invaded and colonized Sicily during the Dark Ages included many black Africans. Back further in American history, Benjamin Franklin said that mostly whites should only settle in America, excluding most Germans, and even Swedes - by today's standards, the whitest people on earth(!) - from his definition of white. So yes, assigning certain people to one race, and others to another, certainly does seem to be a matter of social and political opinion, and is hardly scientific.
In a few decades when we whites lose our majority in America, Latinos will probably be welcomed into the white family just so whites can still call America a white country.
In a few decades when we whites lose our majority in America, Latinos will probably be welcomed into the white family just so whites can still call America a white country.
I generally like Franklin but he was narrow minded when it came to humans. By white he meant WASP who speaks English. No Popes.
He might have thought Germans were mixed with Jewish.
Actually, most of the Germans Franklin was familiar with were from the Rhine country, specifically the Rhineland Palatinate, and the Kraichgau (which is today part of Baden-Wurttemberg), where the Germanic population had long ago blended with the descendants of Romanized provincials in the region, making them dark haired and deep ruddy complected. My dad was very much of this physical appearance, and I'm starting to lean that way as I get older. He gave Germans of Saxon stock a pass, though (as they were kin to the English), though I fail to understand why he thought Swedes weren't white.
The actual Romans were very fair skinned, blue eyed, blond hair. Most of the emperors were blue eyed with blond hair with a couple of exceptions.
The Ptolemys whom were of Greek descent were the same.
Even Ahenobarbus (Emperor Nero) had blond hair even though his ancestor was named Ahenobarbus due to the color of his beard. According to legend he is descended from a man who heard Castor and Pollux announced the victory of the Romans at Lake Regillus. They touched his beard as proof and it changed from black to a bronze color. Some of the Ahenobarbi did have red beards and hair but not Nero.
It's interesting to watch movies and television shows featuring reenactments of life with Roman emperors because I get a sense of what the producers, directors and writers actually know about them. Have they done their research? They portray them at times as swarthy. Emperor Augustus was not swarthy. People assume Italians, therefore Romans, are all dark haired, with dark brown eyes and olive complexions, like Al Pacino.
So when you say Romanized, it might not necessarily mean someone will look like a forerunner of Al Pacino, hehe. However, I can picture such a person as you described in my mind because I knew a guy who always had extremely ruddy cheeks and dark hair. I always wondered why his cheeks were always so flushed. Maybe his ancestors are from the same region?
The Romans were probably much more cosmopolitan and multi-ethnic than they are given credit for. Sure, the Roman leadership were described as blond - though in Romance languages today, blond today tends to include any hair color that wasn't black - and I see no reason why that rule wouldn't include the oldest Romance culture. It must be remembered, while blonds were among the Roman populace, they themselves tended to take note of northern populations, such as the Germans and Celts, for their fair hair, implying that fair hair was not so common a Roman trait and so noteworthy.
They would conquer people and bring slaves back to Rome from the region and they would be of various ethnicities. The fact they occupied so many places could be one reason they are thought of as multi ethnic, along with the Greeks who had an empire, also, only it went in a more easterly direction. Maybe the ruling class shared the blond/fair complected traits?
Kraichgauer
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16 Jun 2015, 7:13 pm
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As far as race being a social construct is concerned: it should be remembered that as late as the late nineteenth century/early twentieth century, most considered Italians, especially Sicilians, to be non-white. But today, no one is going to even entertain that notion, even though it's widely known that the Moors who had invaded and colonized Sicily during the Dark Ages included many black Africans. Back further in American history, Benjamin Franklin said that mostly whites should only settle in America, excluding most Germans, and even Swedes - by today's standards, the whitest people on earth(!) - from his definition of white. So yes, assigning certain people to one race, and others to another, certainly does seem to be a matter of social and political opinion, and is hardly scientific.
In a few decades when we whites lose our majority in America, Latinos will probably be welcomed into the white family just so whites can still call America a white country.
In a few decades when we whites lose our majority in America, Latinos will probably be welcomed into the white family just so whites can still call America a white country.
I generally like Franklin but he was narrow minded when it came to humans. By white he meant WASP who speaks English. No Popes.
He might have thought Germans were mixed with Jewish.
Actually, most of the Germans Franklin was familiar with were from the Rhine country, specifically the Rhineland Palatinate, and the Kraichgau (which is today part of Baden-Wurttemberg), where the Germanic population had long ago blended with the descendants of Romanized provincials in the region, making them dark haired and deep ruddy complected. My dad was very much of this physical appearance, and I'm starting to lean that way as I get older. He gave Germans of Saxon stock a pass, though (as they were kin to the English), though I fail to understand why he thought Swedes weren't white.
The actual Romans were very fair skinned, blue eyed, blond hair. Most of the emperors were blue eyed with blond hair with a couple of exceptions.
The Ptolemys whom were of Greek descent were the same.
Even Ahenobarbus (Emperor Nero) had blond hair even though his ancestor was named Ahenobarbus due to the color of his beard. According to legend he is descended from a man who heard Castor and Pollux announced the victory of the Romans at Lake Regillus. They touched his beard as proof and it changed from black to a bronze color. Some of the Ahenobarbi did have red beards and hair but not Nero.
It's interesting to watch movies and television shows featuring reenactments of life with Roman emperors because I get a sense of what the producers, directors and writers actually know about them. Have they done their research? They portray them at times as swarthy. Emperor Augustus was not swarthy. People assume Italians, therefore Romans, are all dark haired, with dark brown eyes and olive complexions, like Al Pacino.
So when you say Romanized, it might not necessarily mean someone will look like a forerunner of Al Pacino, hehe. However, I can picture such a person as you described in my mind because I knew a guy who always had extremely ruddy cheeks and dark hair. I always wondered why his cheeks were always so flushed. Maybe his ancestors are from the same region?
The Romans were probably much more cosmopolitan and multi-ethnic than they are given credit for. Sure, the Roman leadership were described as blond - though in Romance languages today, blond today tends to include any hair color that wasn't black - and I see no reason why that rule wouldn't include the oldest Romance culture. It must be remembered, while blonds were among the Roman populace, they themselves tended to take note of northern populations, such as the Germans and Celts, for their fair hair, implying that fair hair was not so common a Roman trait and so noteworthy.
They would conquer people and bring slaves back to Rome from the region and they would be of various ethnicities. The fact they occupied so many places could be one reason they are thought of as multi ethnic, along with the Greeks who had an empire, also, only it went in a more easterly direction. Maybe the ruling class shared the blond/fair complected traits?
We know that one of the earliest groups to settle in the vicinity of Rome - and thus were most likely Roman ancestors - had come out of the Black Forest region of southwest Germany, which was the cradle of the Hallstatt-La Tenne Celtic material culture, most likely making them fair colored Alpine Celts. Though to be sure, there was evidence of other populations in the area, as well, at least some of whom probably had a more Mediterranean appearance.
16 Jun 2015, 9:34 pm
lostonearth35
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16 Jun 2015, 10:17 pm
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Kraichgauer
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16 Jun 2015, 11:56 pm
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Kraichgauer
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Campin_Cat
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17 Jun 2015, 8:01 am
Kraichgauer
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17 Jun 2015, 11:09 am
Kraichgauer
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17 Jun 2015, 11:13 am
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17 Jun 2015, 11:15 am
