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Aristophanes
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28 Aug 2015, 7:29 am

Raptor wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Raptor wrote:
More like people could get so fed up with this feminist knee-jerk reactionism that a "boy that cried wolf" scenario will take hold and these little episodes of crying for justice over such pettiness will start drawing automatic scorn, mocking criticism, and be automatically disregarded. The resultant attitudes could could over time transition from "Oh, I see your concern and you're right; men really are pigs and something should be done to change attitudes" to an eventual "Bi+ch, just STFU and get back in the kitchen" type of responses.


That breed of human is slowly becoming domesticated. Year after year that attitude has less and less effect on our society and it will eventually reach a point where it's just not tolerated. The march of progress is slow but it's also an unstoppable force: the hard social truth is that we have much more to gain as a society by empowering as many people as possible than we do by diminishing them because it merely diminishes the whole.

A person produces less when they're unhappy, unstable, etc. If a large a portion of the population, say 50% as females are, is less productive that's a large chunk of production left on the table. Economic forces alone will dictate this shift-- look at sexism in the work environment, it still exists but as the years go by it keeps getting chipped away and chipped away by company policy and company policing. This is because companies realize that they have more to gain by keeping a large portion of their workforce, women, happy and very productive rather than fearful and less productive. Now take your "get in the kitchen" person, that attitude will not fly in most current work environments. If you want a job you're gonna have to check that attitude at the door. If it's not actively repeated in a work environment, where a majority of people do most of their socialization, it becomes less regurgitated and less likely to be repeated outside that environment. We've already chosen our fork in the river, we're currently just rafting downstream until we hit our landing.


I'll be brief.
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Yes, there are cases where anti-discrimination practices are used well outside the intention by dubious people for their own personal gain, that could be said of virtually any law or policy. Back in the 90's they may have feared lawsuits, but today most companies do it for what we would call PR. No company wants to be known as having a sexist, racist, etc. work environment, in the end it hurts their bottom line because they don't want to alienate those demographics because those are potential customers. There will be a time when this normalizes though, and there's blow back against the abusers of that system.



androbot01
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28 Aug 2015, 8:25 am

Raptor wrote:
More like people could get so fed up with this feminist knee-jerk reactionism that a "boy that cried wolf" scenario will take hold and these little episodes of crying for justice over such pettiness will start drawing automatic scorn, mocking criticism, and be automatically disregarded. The resultant attitudes could could over time transition from "Oh, I see your concern and you're right; men really are pigs and something should be done to change attitudes" to an eventual "Bi+ch, just STFU and get back in the kitchen" type of responses.

Your concern for the well being of women is touching.



Adamantium
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28 Aug 2015, 9:04 am

Raptor wrote:
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Hey, there's an idea!

A great response to the charming young men with the banners outside the frat is to make sure their images, identities and choices as adults to display these messages in public are widely displayed around the time of their graduation when prospective employers might be looking into the backgrounds of their potential employees.

If they are proud of these messages and stand behind them, they will no doubt be eager to explain that to prospective employers.

A few well documented cases of this kind should have a chilling effect on these particularly asinine, sophomoric uses of their freedom of speech.

I can imagine enterprising students who don't think such banners are particularly welcome launching social media campaigns featuring photos and other records of such speech to celebrate the best and brightest examples in each graduating class. One good turn of free expression deserves another!



Aristophanes
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28 Aug 2015, 9:07 am

Adamantium wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Hey, there's an idea!

A great response to the charming young men with the banners outside the frat is to make sure their images, identities and choices as adults to display these messages in public are widely displayed around the time of their graduation when prospective employers might be looking into the backgrounds of their potential employees.

If they are proud of these messages and stand behind them, they will no doubt be eager to explain that to prospective employers.

A few well documented cases of this kind should have a chilling effect on these particularly asinine, sophomoric uses of their freedom of speech.

I can imagine enterprising students who don't think such banners are particularly welcome launching social media campaigns featuring photos and other records of such speech to celebrate the best and brightest examples in each graduating class. One good turn of free expression deserves another!


Lol, nice.



Adamantium
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28 Aug 2015, 9:13 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Hey, there's an idea!

A great response to the charming young men with the banners outside the frat is to make sure their images, identities and choices as adults to display these messages in public are widely displayed around the time of their graduation when prospective employers might be looking into the backgrounds of their potential employees.

If they are proud of these messages and stand behind them, they will no doubt be eager to explain that to prospective employers.

A few well documented cases of this kind should have a chilling effect on these particularly asinine, sophomoric uses of their freedom of speech.

I can imagine enterprising students who don't think such banners are particularly welcome launching social media campaigns featuring photos and other records of such speech to celebrate the best and brightest examples in each graduating class. One good turn of free expression deserves another!


Lol, nice.


:D

And it's already happening! I did a quick search after posting that and this came up:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... cial-media

and this:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2 ... pects.html

Veritas liberabit vos, dudes!



Aristophanes
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28 Aug 2015, 9:28 am

Adamantium wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Hey, there's an idea!

A great response to the charming young men with the banners outside the frat is to make sure their images, identities and choices as adults to display these messages in public are widely displayed around the time of their graduation when prospective employers might be looking into the backgrounds of their potential employees.

If they are proud of these messages and stand behind them, they will no doubt be eager to explain that to prospective employers.

A few well documented cases of this kind should have a chilling effect on these particularly asinine, sophomoric uses of their freedom of speech.

I can imagine enterprising students who don't think such banners are particularly welcome launching social media campaigns featuring photos and other records of such speech to celebrate the best and brightest examples in each graduating class. One good turn of free expression deserves another!


Lol, nice.


:D

And it's already happening! I did a quick search after posting that and this came up:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015 ... cial-media

and this:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2 ... pects.html

Veritas liberabit vos, dudes!


Lol, now you're just being an ass-- making me look up latin and all..."truth shall set you free", dudes-- for anyone reading that's too lazy to search.



Adamantium
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28 Aug 2015, 10:06 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Lol, now you're just being an ass-- making me look up latin and all..."truth shall set you free", dudes-- for anyone reading that's too lazy to search.


I thought a bit of latin would fit the collegiate spirit of the story! :D



Raptor
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28 Aug 2015, 12:10 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Raptor wrote:
More like people could get so fed up with this feminist knee-jerk reactionism that a "boy that cried wolf" scenario will take hold and these little episodes of crying for justice over such pettiness will start drawing automatic scorn, mocking criticism, and be automatically disregarded. The resultant attitudes could could over time transition from "Oh, I see your concern and you're right; men really are pigs and something should be done to change attitudes" to an eventual "Bi+ch, just STFU and get back in the kitchen" type of responses.


That breed of human is slowly becoming domesticated. Year after year that attitude has less and less effect on our society and it will eventually reach a point where it's just not tolerated. The march of progress is slow but it's also an unstoppable force: the hard social truth is that we have much more to gain as a society by empowering as many people as possible than we do by diminishing them because it merely diminishes the whole.

A person produces less when they're unhappy, unstable, etc. If a large a portion of the population, say 50% as females are, is less productive that's a large chunk of production left on the table. Economic forces alone will dictate this shift-- look at sexism in the work environment, it still exists but as the years go by it keeps getting chipped away and chipped away by company policy and company policing. This is because companies realize that they have more to gain by keeping a large portion of their workforce, women, happy and very productive rather than fearful and less productive. Now take your "get in the kitchen" person, that attitude will not fly in most current work environments. If you want a job you're gonna have to check that attitude at the door. If it's not actively repeated in a work environment, where a majority of people do most of their socialization, it becomes less regurgitated and less likely to be repeated outside that environment. We've already chosen our fork in the river, we're currently just rafting downstream until we hit our landing.


I'll be brief.
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Yes, there are cases where anti-discrimination practices are used well outside the intention by dubious people for their own personal gain, that could be said of virtually any law or policy. Back in the 90's they may have feared lawsuits, but today most companies do it for what we would call PR. No company wants to be known as having a sexist, racist, etc. work environment, in the end it hurts their bottom line because they don't want to alienate those demographics because those are potential customers. There will be a time when this normalizes though, and there's blow back against the abusers of that system.


It's this decade I'm talking about. And crying wolf is still crying wolf.


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Raptor
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28 Aug 2015, 12:21 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Employers fear discrimination suits.
Employees fear retribution from their employers.
Women (not men) can run to HR and scream discrimination and whip up a tear or two for effect and an inquisition will ensue. Even if HR and management knows well enough that it's all just BS they'll go on the attack to protect themselves out of fear.

Seen it enough with more than one employer. Plenty of others see this and resent it as well.
It gets old.


Hey, there's an idea!

A great response to the charming young men with the banners outside the frat is to make sure their images, identities and choices as adults to display these messages in public are widely displayed around the time of their graduation when prospective employers might be looking into the backgrounds of their potential employees.

If they are proud of these messages and stand behind them, they will no doubt be eager to explain that to prospective employers.

A few well documented cases of this kind should have a chilling effect on these particularly asinine, sophomoric uses of their freedom of speech.

I can imagine enterprising students who don't think such banners are particularly welcome launching social media campaigns featuring photos and other records of such speech to celebrate the best and brightest examples in each graduating class. One good turn of free expression deserves another!


Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"


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Adamantium
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28 Aug 2015, 12:38 pm

Raptor wrote:
What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.


Well, there you go: every little bit helps.



cyberdad
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29 Aug 2015, 12:37 am

Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.



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29 Aug 2015, 12:55 am

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.


Believe it or not, all women are hysterical. In fact, most of them arent hysterical and wouldn't be particularly bothered by frat house antics. Many would actually find amusement in it.


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Adamantium
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29 Aug 2015, 7:46 am

Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.


Believe it or not, all women are hysterical. In fact, most of them arent hysterical and wouldn't be particularly bothered by frat house antics. Many would actually find amusement in it.


Whatever the gender of the decision makers doing the hiring, the same guidelines and discussions with the risk mitigation people or legal weenies from the company's General Counsel will probably come into play.

So the sensible advice to young adults is: be as much of an ass as you like, but don't do it in such a public way that it blemishes your permanent record.

Being photographed standing behind off-color banners and leering at the new arrivals on campus is probably not a terribly damning thing, if such evidence is accomplished by a few dozen other images in Facebook's permanent archive, it could help to build a case that you might not be a good hire.

A wise person would recognize that whatever fleeting pleasure might be gained by being an a**hole on the balcony of your frat is probably not worth the potential harm.

People on campus who deplore this kind of thing can take action to help their fellow students to understand this logic, as they do seem to be doing. Academic and fraternity leaders are also taking steps to protect their enterprises from the negative publicity of this kind.
Quote:
"Part of the message that ought to be out there is if it's going to get you in trouble, that's a reason not to do it," Burke [Tim Burke, founding partner of Fraternal Law Partners] said. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/0 ... 01492.html



cubedemon6073
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29 Aug 2015, 2:09 pm

Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.


Believe it or not, all women are hysterical. In fact, most of them arent hysterical and wouldn't be particularly bothered by frat house antics. Many would actually find amusement in it.



Huh! I'm confused. You're saying All A are B yet at the same time Most(Some) A are not B. If one looks at the square of oppositions you do know that if one accepts both a universal affirmative and a particular negative at the same time you are being contradictory.



Aristophanes
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29 Aug 2015, 2:18 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.


Believe it or not, all women are hysterical. In fact, most of them arent hysterical and wouldn't be particularly bothered by frat house antics. Many would actually find amusement in it.



Huh! I'm confused. You're saying All A are B yet at the same time Most(Some) A are not B. If one looks at the square of oppositions you do know that if one accepts both a universal affirmative and a particular negative at the same time you are being contradictory.

I'm assuming there's a "not" that was supposed to be before the first "hysterical". It's just a mistype is all.



cubedemon6073
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29 Aug 2015, 2:44 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Most prospective employers would see it as boys being boys and think nothing of it since they likely did similar things in their youth. What might keep them from hiring them is the fear that in being made aware of the banner episode it could be used against them in the future.
"The Acme Defense Avionics Company did in fact knowingly hire sexual predators thusly validating their insensitivity toward women!"

Unless those doing the hiring are women.


Believe it or not, all women are hysterical. In fact, most of them arent hysterical and wouldn't be particularly bothered by frat house antics. Many would actually find amusement in it.



Huh! I'm confused. You're saying All A are B yet at the same time Most(Some) A are not B. If one looks at the square of oppositions you do know that if one accepts both a universal affirmative and a particular negative at the same time you are being contradictory.

I'm assuming there's a "not" that was supposed to be before the first "hysterical". It's just a mistype is all.


You're possibly right. Raptor, what did you mean?