Sweden the only country with Correct Approach to CVD-19

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cyberdad
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09 May 2020, 5:52 am

Fireblossom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Let's not forget that we still don't know what long lasting effects this virus can have on people even if they survive. It's possible that it'll damage some people for a lifetime, causing those people to need more medical attention etc. That too should be taken in to account.


Vaccines?


What do vaccines have to do with it? If someone gets infected, the possible damage has already been done. Or if you're saying that vaccines might cause long term harm too then you're right, but they tend to be carefully tested and developed, so the chances are lower.


My point is vaccination will at least keep those at highest risk from relapse so long as they keep taking booster shots. But (yes) that's down the track. In the meantime 2 years of a locked global economy will lead to dystopia. The Swedes collectively decided they don't want that.



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09 May 2020, 8:28 am

^But for countries like the UK we aren't going to be in lockdown for two years. They aren't trying to stop it, just slow it down.



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09 May 2020, 8:47 am

Who is talking about a locked economy for two years?

They are already talking about opening things up and how to do it in Connecticut.
There are still a lot of confirmed deaths each day here.

A lot of the spread is due to just a few situations. Large gatherings. Parties.
Work situations that put people in close proximity, like large offices without walls.
Eating in restaurants that put people together for the better part of an hour.

It isn't just exposure to the virus, but how much exposure. Health care workers are at risk because
they have so much exposure to the virus. So are meat packing workers stuck in crowded facilities.
An executive in his own private office? Not so much, particularly if he washes his hands after touching
any surfaces shared with those who work in open offices.

People end up hospitalized due to poor health. Overweight. Diabetes. High blood pressure. Smoking.
It would be much less of a problem if people who caught the virus didn't need hospitalization.



cyberdad
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09 May 2020, 9:23 pm

The vaccine isn't going to be ready (hypothetically) for another 18 months

The 2 yr lockdown scenario is for countries where the easing of restrictions keeps resulting in spikes in infections and a continual resumption of restrictions every few months.

Sweden may have already achieved herd immunity so they can continue as they are till the vaccine is developed for those who are vulnerable.



magz
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10 May 2020, 4:00 am

fluffysaurus wrote:
^But for countries like the UK we aren't going to be in lockdown for two years. They aren't trying to stop it, just slow it down.

The "lockdown" here is all about trying to find some managable quasi-"new normal".
With an exception of businesses that can't operate without physically gathering many people, everyone is just trying to adapt and go on. Restaurants are on delivery - one is famous as it also offers rooms and now they rent rooms for hours with instant delivery from their restaurant :D - shops introduce limits and precautions, with small businesses getting serious advantage; factories I know of reorganize to introduce social distancing, even my daughter's dance club offers remote classes.
The economy obviously slowed down but it's far away from halting. If there were no other option, we can go on like that, probably for years (of course I hope we don't have to, face masks are so uncomfortable and I miss my climbing gym... hope they survive)


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fluffysaurus
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10 May 2020, 8:30 am

magz wrote:
fluffysaurus wrote:
^But for countries like the UK we aren't going to be in lockdown for two years. They aren't trying to stop it, just slow it down.

The "lockdown" here is all about trying to find some managable quasi-"new normal".
With an exception of businesses that can't operate without physically gathering many people, everyone is just trying to adapt and go on. Restaurants are on delivery - one is famous as it also offers rooms and now they rent rooms for hours with instant delivery from their restaurant :D - shops introduce limits and precautions, with small businesses getting serious advantage; factories I know of reorganize to introduce social distancing, even my daughter's dance club offers remote classes.
The economy obviously slowed down but it's far away from halting. If there were no other option, we can go on like that, probably for years (of course I hope we don't have to, face masks are so uncomfortable and I miss my climbing gym... hope they survive)
Everyone is encouraged to work from home but offices and building sites are still working as are shops such as DIY, Boots (pharmacist) and food shops. Restaurants were all allowed to do take away.

It's the pubs, eating inside in restaurants, shops that sell non essentials (alcohol is classed as essential), hairdressers, and gyms that were ordered to close.

We don't have to have any paperwork to go out or have to schedule shopping or anything like that. They are reopening garden centres (I don't thing they should have been closed) we'll see what else. Now we are used to some of the rules I think it will be possible to open up some more things without undoing everything.

No one here is going to be collecting in groups to demonstrate to go back to work any time soon, thank God but on the other hand the elderly will not stay inside forever so it's all a balancing act.



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10 May 2020, 11:56 am

We don't have this essential / non-essential differentiation, all shops are allowed to operate with precautions and a lot of them sell online anyway.
I think, despite general incompetence of our current ruling class, one thing here has been done right: Poland started locking down early, with the first confirmed cases, before the virus had time to spread.


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11 May 2020, 4:35 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Fireblossom wrote:
Let's not forget that we still don't know what long lasting effects this virus can have on people even if they survive. It's possible that it'll damage some people for a lifetime, causing those people to need more medical attention etc. That too should be taken in to account.


Vaccines?


What do vaccines have to do with it? If someone gets infected, the possible damage has already been done. Or if you're saying that vaccines might cause long term harm too then you're right, but they tend to be carefully tested and developed, so the chances are lower.


My point is vaccination will at least keep those at highest risk from relapse so long as they keep taking booster shots. But (yes) that's down the track. In the meantime 2 years of a locked global economy will lead to dystopia. The Swedes collectively decided they don't want that.


The Swedes didn’t collectively decide s**t, just like Canadians didn’t decide our governments’ response, nor did Americans theirs, or Australia’s theirs. Their government decided.


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12 May 2020, 12:21 am

goldfish21 wrote:
The Swedes didn’t collectively decide s**t, just like Canadians didn’t decide our governments’ response, nor did Americans theirs, or Australia’s theirs. Their government decided.


Piffle.

Cyber can probably attest to this as well.

Melbourne decided lockdown was over about a week ago(give or take a few days).
I noticed the traffic outside my house return to normal over about 3 days.

On Friday, Premier Andrews said he would have an announcement on Monday and people ignored him and continued going about their lives.

Over the weekend, the police went on a fine-a-thon and that had no effect, people continued to ignore lockdown.
So on Monday the Premier announced a "Bold Leadership Initiative" that lockdown was being lifted in stages. :D

Everyone smiled and said "That's nice" and continued to ignore him and go about their lives.
So I don't know about Sweden and Canada, but in Australia, or at least in Victoria a majority of the general public decided that lockdown was over.



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12 May 2020, 12:26 am

Yes I think that's the mother's day debacle where thousands of Melbournians flooded the major shopping centres to buy trinkets for their mothers.

Also people have been breaching the social distancing rule for months in private house gatherings. Its amusing to see people tip toe in and out of their parent, girlfriends, friends homes in nighttime.



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12 May 2020, 8:52 am

^Our prime minister's job is to come up with the answer that everyone wants to hear too. We're (mostly) obeying

the rules here, because they make sense to us and fit what's happening.

Boris looks stupid, but he isn't; he knows we can't be lead where we don't want to go. Persuade us it's the right

thing or shut up.

I don't see the Swedes being radically different so a significant portion of them must back the approach they have

gone for.



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12 May 2020, 11:51 am

Only Taiwan did the correct approach.



magz
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12 May 2020, 12:07 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Only Taiwan did the correct approach.

I think S. Korea is doing well, too.


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12 May 2020, 12:19 pm

Sweden admits failure to protect elderly in care homes

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Sweden, whose softer approach to the coronavirus has garnered international attention, admits it has failed to adequately protect the elderly, with around half of COVID-19 deaths occurring among nursing home residents.

Reports have flooded Swedish media in recent weeks of care home staff continuing to work despite a lack of protective gear.

Others have refused to work and workers are encouraged to stay home even with mild symptoms, leaving homes short-staffed.

Other personnel have admitted going to work despite exhibiting symptoms of the virus, potentially infecting residents, while some elderly have reportedly been infected while admitted to hospital for other treatments and then sent back to care homes where they unwittingly spread the disease.

Sweden has reported 3,220 deaths from the virus as of Saturday.

The country said early on that shielding those 70 and older was its top priority.

Yet 90 percent of those who had died as of April 28 were over the age of 70. Half were nursing home residents, and another quarter were receiving care at home, statistics from the Swedish Board of Health and Welfare show.

"We failed to protect our elderly. That's really serious, and a failure for society as a whole. We have to learn from this, we're not done with this pandemic yet," Health and Social Affairs Minister Lena Hallengren told Swedish Television recently.

Swedish nursing homes are often large complexes with hundreds of residents.

They are only available to those in very poor health and unable to care for themselves, and residents are therefore "a very vulnerable group", according to Henrik Lysell of the Board of Health and Welfare.

Bjorn Branngard told AFP the personnel at his mother's home did not have proper protective gear.

"There was no protection. The personnel were going between different sections and spreading the virus."

In greater Stockholm, the epicentre of Sweden's virus spread, 55 percent of nursing homes have so far confirmed COVID-19 cases, according to Region Stockholm health authorities.

Kommunal, Sweden's largest union for municipal employees which includes many care workers, has meanwhile blamed precarious working conditions for the unfolding tragedy.

It said that in March, 40 percent of staff at Stockholm nursing homes were unskilled workers employed on short-term contracts, with hourly wages and no job security, while 23 percent were temps.

In other words: people who often can't afford not to go to work even if they're sick.

"There are a lot of different people who work at several nursing homes, and that also leads to a greater spread," the head of Kommunal's nursing home division, Ulf Bjerregaard, said.

At the end of April, Kommunal filed a complaint to the Swedish Work Environment Authority, claiming that 27 of the 96 residents at the home where Branngard's mother lived had so far died of the virus, and yet staff were not being provided protective gear or offered testing.

The authority is studying the complaint, and prosecutors have opened a preliminary investigation.

Abdullah, a pseudonym for a 21-year-old refugee who didn't want to disclose his real name, has worked as an assistant in a care home outside Stockholm for two years.

He told AFP about a resident treated in hospital for a broken leg.

"She tested negative for the virus when she was with us. When she returned from the hospital three days later, she was positive," he said.

"We had protective aprons but no masks when we were working with her," he said, adding that he has since refused to go to work.

The Public Health Agency meanwhile said efforts to improve basic hygiene routines in the homes were paying off.

"Stockholm has actually had a clear decrease in cases (in nursing homes), that feels positive," state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell told reporters on Thursday.


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magz
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12 May 2020, 1:03 pm

That's really sad :(
I think the concept of "isolating the vulnerable and the rest go on with their lives" sounds nice, but it's extremely hard to actually implement. Sweden apparently failed to do so.


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15 May 2020, 11:23 pm

While Sweden's approach of diving into herd immunity is not universally supported, an Australian infectious disease expert advising the Australian government on the spread of Covid-19 has warned there is no guarantee that a vaccine will be found soon.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... t-tells-qa
Prof Jodie McVernon, director of Doherty Epidemiology, told the ABC’s Q+A program she was concerned there was “dogma out there” that a vaccine for the virus could be found within a year to 18 months.

McVernon said there were “no certainties here” and while she hoped a vaccine could be found “it isn’t a guarantee”.

She said: “That’s why this needs to be a much more nuanced discussion about how we learn to live with this new virus, how we adapt to it over time, how we mitigate its risks and harms, how we keep looking for new therapies and other treatments that might reduce the death toll … and hoping for a vaccine, but being aware it may not come. That is important.”