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I have a question about the George Floyd incident.

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Jiheisho
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20 Sep 2020, 2:07 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
More facts:
- the medical examiner says Floyd had a lethal dose of fentayl in his blood
- the medical examiner says based on the evidence he would rule Floyd's death a drug overdose if Floyd was found at home
-the medical examiner found no evidence of neck bruising

So ...

-there is no evidence Chauvin's knee caused Floyd's death
-video cannot tell us how much pressure Chauvin put on Floyd's neck


News on the medical examiner's report: Two autopsies find homicide and asphyxiation

No, they don't.

The medical examiners speculated at death.

The county medical examiner admitted that his "determination" was simply looking at the video, and not the physical evidence (which he found none).


You can't perform autopsy by video. The two final autopsies showed homicide by asphyxiation--see link above. You have also been gaslit: George Floyd’s Autopsy and the Structural Gaslighting of America

I explained above that the county medical examiner admitted he found no physical evidence of that.

He admitted he looked at the video to make that determination.

He even admitted that he would rule Floyd's death a drug overdose based on the physical evidence.

Speculation is not evidence.


The medical report can also be found here: County medical report You will need to create and account.

I've read it so many times.

What don't you understand?


I understand it very well. As the report states the death was a homicide cause by the actions of the officer by kneeling on the victim.



TheRobotLives
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20 Sep 2020, 2:08 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system


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funeralxempire
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20 Sep 2020, 2:13 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system



Jiheisho has already directly addressed this, reporting based on the preliminary reports is being used to gaslight people, the final report doesn't agree with the claims you keep repeating. I'd prefer to stop going in circles on this because you don't appear to understand, or if you do understand you're repeatedly misstating the situation.


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TheRobotLives
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20 Sep 2020, 2:24 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system



Jiheisho has already directly addressed this, reporting based on the preliminary reports is being used to gaslight people, the final report doesn't agree with the claims you keep repeating. I'd prefer to stop going in circles on this because you don't appear to understand, or if you do understand you're repeatedly misstating the situation.


The final report is here ...
https://content.govdelivery.com/attachm ... 1.2020.pdf

However, the point I have been making is that the medical examiner admitted he made the determination based on speculation from watching the video, and not from physical evidence.

There is no physical evidence that Chauvin's knee caused Floyd's death.

See here, https://www.mncourts.gov/getattachment/ ... lang=en-US

Dr Baker says "if Mr. Floyd had been found dead in his home (or anywhere else) and there were no
other contributing factors he would conclude that it was an overdose death".

Dr. Baker found no physical evidence of neck bruising.

"The medical examiner appeared to back his conclusion that Floyd was not asphyxiated by listing a host of injuries that were absent, in particular petechiae, or pinpoint-size red spots caused by broken blood vessels that can be a sign of asphyxiation".
https://www.startribune.com/george-floy ... 571000102/

So, the physical evidence suggests NO asphyxiation by Chauvin.


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Jiheisho
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20 Sep 2020, 2:33 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system


If you read the article carefully, you will see that the officer restraint was a cause:

Quote:
The Armed Forces Medical Examiner filed a memorandum agreeing with the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s final conclusion that Floyd's death was a homicide, saying, “His death was caused by the police subdual and restraint in the setting of severe hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, and methamphetamine and fentanyl intoxication.”


But I guess what you are trying to say that if someone has a health condition that it is their bad luck that a police officer uses excessive force and kills them.



Jiheisho
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20 Sep 2020, 2:40 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Dr. Baker found no physical evidence of neck bruising.

"The medical examiner appeared to back his conclusion that Floyd was not asphyxiated by listing a host of injuries that were absent, in particular petechiae, or pinpoint-size red spots caused by broken blood vessels that can be a sign of asphyxiation".
https://www.startribune.com/george-floy ... 571000102/

So, the physical evidence suggests NO asphyxiation by Chauvin.


From the very same article that you quote:

Quote:
Before releasing its full report, the Medical Examiner’s Office summarized in two public disclosures that Floyd died as a result of “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”


By the way, the same newspaper also ran a piece very critical of the examiner's office: George Floyd's autopsy puts Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker in the hot seat



TheRobotLives
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20 Sep 2020, 2:40 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system


If you read the article carefully, you will see that the officer restraint was a cause:

Yes, however, as quoted above, Dr. Baker found no physical evidence to make that determination.

He speculated that police restraints could be a complication.

Jiheisho wrote:
Quote:
The Armed Forces Medical Examiner filed a memorandum agreeing with the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s final conclusion that Floyd's death was a homicide, saying, “His death was caused by the police subdual and restraint in the setting of severe hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, and methamphetamine and fentanyl intoxication.”


But I guess what you are trying to say that if someone has a health condition that it is their bad luck that a police officer uses excessive force and kills them.

I am saying in court you need proof.

You cannot just speculate that *maybe* Floyd died from neck compression, despite the medical examiner testifying that there is NO physical evidence of neck asphyxiation and listing multiple other possible causes.


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TheRobotLives
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20 Sep 2020, 2:46 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
Dr. Baker found no physical evidence of neck bruising.

"The medical examiner appeared to back his conclusion that Floyd was not asphyxiated by listing a host of injuries that were absent, in particular petechiae, or pinpoint-size red spots caused by broken blood vessels that can be a sign of asphyxiation".
https://www.startribune.com/george-floy ... 571000102/

So, the physical evidence suggests NO asphyxiation by Chauvin.


From the very same article that you quote:

Quote:
Before releasing its full report, the Medical Examiner’s Office summarized in two public disclosures that Floyd died as a result of “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.”


By the way, the same newspaper also ran a piece very critical of the examiner's office: George Floyd's autopsy puts Hennepin County Medical Examiner Andrew Baker in the hot seat

Dr. Baker is the person saying it's a homicide.

Now you question his work? :)

Dr. Baker is merely saying police restraints complicated Floyd's death.


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Jiheisho
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20 Sep 2020, 2:51 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
TheRobotLives wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:

A habitual user of opioids develops tolerance and can function with doses that would likely cause an opioid naive individual to die. George Floyd was known to be a habitual user of opioid drugs, it seems unreasonable to insist he overdosed when he wasn't demonstrating signs consistent with an overdose and would have had an elevated tolerance to drugs of that type.

The country medical examiner is the one saying it.

Court filings: Medical examiner thought George Floyd had 'fatal level' of fentanyl in system
https://www.fox9.com/news/court-filings ... -in-system


If you read the article carefully, you will see that the officer restraint was a cause:

Yes, however, as quoted above, Dr. Baker found no physical evidence to make that determination.

He speculated that police restraints could be a complication.

Jiheisho wrote:
Quote:
The Armed Forces Medical Examiner filed a memorandum agreeing with the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s final conclusion that Floyd's death was a homicide, saying, “His death was caused by the police subdual and restraint in the setting of severe hypertensive atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, and methamphetamine and fentanyl intoxication.”


But I guess what you are trying to say that if someone has a health condition that it is their bad luck that a police officer uses excessive force and kills them.

I am saying in court you need proof.

You cannot just speculate that *maybe* Floyd died from neck compression, despite the medical examiner testifying that there is NO physical evidence of neck asphyxiation and listing multiple other possible causes.


So even the the examiner's office, the Armed Forces examiner, and the private examiner all state the police action were a probable cause for Floyd's death and declared it a homicide (not manslaughter) and we have video documentation showing the event, you think it was drugs? Yes, it will have to be proven in court. However, I don't support of excessive police violence and given other cases that have had far less evidence, this is hardly a tough call.



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20 Sep 2020, 3:04 pm

Jiheisho wrote:
So even the the examiner's office, the Armed Forces examiner, and the private examiner all state the police action were a probable cause for Floyd's death and declared it a homicide (not manslaughter) and we have video documentation showing the event, you think it was drugs? Yes, it will have to be proven in court. However, I don't support of excessive police violence and given other cases that have had far less evidence, this is hardly a tough call.

Except, Chauvin was following the *maximal restraint technique* as he was taught by the Minneapolis police department.

So, the public -- police are a public entity -- has determined what he did as *reasonable force*.

Left is police training, right is Chauvin
Image


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Jiheisho
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20 Sep 2020, 4:18 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Jiheisho wrote:
So even the the examiner's office, the Armed Forces examiner, and the private examiner all state the police action were a probable cause for Floyd's death and declared it a homicide (not manslaughter) and we have video documentation showing the event, you think it was drugs? Yes, it will have to be proven in court. However, I don't support of excessive police violence and given other cases that have had far less evidence, this is hardly a tough call.

Except, Chauvin was following the *maximal restraint technique* as he was taught by the Minneapolis police department.

So, the public -- police are a public entity -- has determined what he did as *reasonable force*.

Left is police training, right is Chauvin
Image


NOTE: in the picture on the left, the knee of the officer is not on the person's neck.

And this technique is used on a threat. Floyd had already been put in a car, but the officers then took him out and then assaulted him. This does not sound like reasonable force. I know you never read what I post, but try this:

Police Use of Force, Training, and a Way Forward After the Death of George Floyd

I believe the police should be accountable for their actions and must serve their communities.



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20 Sep 2020, 7:11 pm

I thought Floyd escaped the car according to the video and got himself out. Or did they take him out themselves?



ironpony
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20 Sep 2020, 8:27 pm

TheRobotLives wrote:
Chauvin looks not guilty.

Some facts:
George Floyd had a lethal dose of fentanyl in his blood.
Fentanyl causes breathing difficulty.
George Floyd resisted arrest.
Officer Chauvin was following police procedure.

Minneapolis police training slide of putting knee on neck of arrested suspect.
Image


There are two things to consider:

1. They say that this is a normal police procedure the knee on the kneck... But after the officers already have you cuffed, is still normal to use it? I though it was a procedure to help restrain you so they can get you into cuffs. But not if you are already in them, than the procedure is now allowed, is it?

2. So many people in the U.S are so mad abou this incident that it's likely a jury will not care what is proper and not proper procedure and want Chauvin to pay no matter what, won't they likely?



PMonly
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20 Sep 2020, 8:42 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

NOTE: in the picture on the left, the knee of the officer is not on the person's neck.



He's not technically kneeling either , he's on the balls of his feet with his thighs touching his calf and has his arms free for balance i.e more control rather than dead weight



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20 Sep 2020, 9:39 pm

ironpony wrote:
There are two things to consider:

1. They say that this is a normal police procedure the knee on the kneck... But after the officers already have you cuffed, is still normal to use it? I though it was a procedure to help restrain you so they can get you into cuffs. But not if you are already in them, than the procedure is now allowed, is it?

The training slide says, "OK they are in handcuffs now what".

So, this is after handcuffs.

ironpony wrote:
2. So many people in the U.S are so mad abou this incident that it's likely a jury will not care what is proper and not proper procedure and want Chauvin to pay no matter what, won't they likely?

Defense lawyers have petitioned the judge to dismiss this before it goes to trial.

If it goes to trial, the Minneapolis attorney general says it will be very hard to convict the officers as juries don't easily convict police doing their jobs.

Mr. Floyd had a criminal and prison record, was supposedly doing a fraud crime at the time, resisting arrest, and pumped full of fentanyl . Not an ideal victim.

I showed earlier, the country medical examiner autopsy report, says there is no physical trauma evidence that Mr. Chauivin's pressure on Floyd's neck caused asphyxiation. Likely, it was the fentanyl, as it's known to cause asphyxiation.

"The medical examiner appeared to back his conclusion that Floyd was not asphyxiated by listing a host of injuries that were absent, in particular petechiae, or pinpoint-size red spots caused by broken blood vessels that can be a sign of asphyxiation".
https://www.startribune.com/george-floy ... 571000102/

We cannot tell from the video the amount of pressure by Mr. Chauvin.

So, there is no physical evidence that Mr. Chauvin murdered Floyd.


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20 Sep 2020, 10:15 pm

Oh okay. But what happened to so many people in the U.S. being hopping mad over the incident to the point where there are protests and riots about it? Did that all suddenly go away, and no all you have are jurors that are partial to police officers now, and no potential jurors biased towards Floyd to choose from?