Diocese says school that flew BLM, Pride flags not Catholic

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magz
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21 Jun 2022, 3:05 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

magz wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Jesus wasn't talking about aligning with secular socio-political movements.

And he criticised aligning to religious socio-political movements (Pharisees, Sadducees).
So what? Should it be banned and silenced?
Does activism for systematic improvement of people's well-being not count as good will but activism for systematic punishments for abortions count?

Socio-political movements at the time were the followers of Barabbas and the like. Not the priesthood. The RCC already have their own system for the improvement of people's well-being.

magz wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Do you really think Jesus was saying that not joining BLM and LGBTQQIP2SAA+ will result in eternal punishment?

Again the same straw man.
No one wanted to force all Catholics to support BLM and LGBT+.
A particular school community wanted to support them and was banned from it.

How is that a straw man when you were applying Matthew 25:31-46 to those groups? A Catholic church school was told it could no longer be a Catholic church school if it insisted on going against Catholic church policy. If people protesting this aren't trying the force the Catholic church to allow flying those flags, then what exactly is the protest? What's the actual goal?

How much do you actually know about Catholic Church?
Because you speak of it like it was a political enterprise, not a community aiming at universalism.

The strawman: allowing != forcing.

That's especially important when your aim is universalism.

Allowing Africans to dance during their liturgy does not mean you force Fins to do the same.

If Catholic church behaves like a political party (i.e. has policies), it has no right to claim universalism any more.

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naturalplastic
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21 Jun 2022, 4:17 am

I get where MG is coming from (even though he isnt arguing is own point very well).

A religion isnt supposed to be partisan, endorse candidates, or take sides in the fleeting secular political issues of the day. Like they arent supposed to favor McDonald's over Burger King. The church is supposed to be about eternal truths.

Except churches do end up taking sides in secular issues of the day. The world is messy. Its a conundrum. But in theory THE church isnt supposed to endorse secular causes.

So if a local diocese of the huge RCC wants to forbid one of its schools from hanging banners like that then it should be their right to forbid that.

And maybe the next regional diocese over might allow a school to hang those banners. Or even ORDER them to do so. And thats their right too. And then the larger RCC might order all diocese the world over to forbid such banners- and thats their right and privilege. Or the Vatican might order the opposite. The diocese, and the RCC as a whole are not the US govt. so whether or not they suppress "free speech" within their ranks is their business. And it is NOT a First Amendment issue. Because the First Amendment protects your speech only from the govt., and not from non governmental institutions you may belong to.

Also...

If Jesus reappeared in the US today I think that we all can agree that he would likely be in the forefront of preaching that "Black lives matter", but at the same time we cant know whether or not he would endorse the group that calls itself "Black Lives Matter". Two different things.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 4:31 am

I suspect in USA, you think of churches differently in general - aim at universalism seems an absent concept there, so rejecting large parts of the society does not seem problematic at all.

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Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 4:43 am

cyberdad wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

The question at hand is does the Church have the right to enforce it's authority regarding Church matters or not? Is it not up to the Church to decide how the Church is to display love for others?

If you frame it that way then can the dioceses legally enforce an edict on a individual church? I don't think so. The worst they can do is cut off the rogue church from accessing catholic funds but then we are back to the issue of whether its in the spirit of being a good christian. You know the answer to that question. Then we are left with one solution which is to defund the catholic church till they stop trying to stifle freedom of expression and wanting to show solidarity and alliance with two oppressed groups,

If a Catholic school or a Catholic person steadfastly disobeys the Catholic church, they can be excommunicated from the Catholic church. In America the Catholic church can't be forced or extorted into waving various flags, including the kind of flags you disapprove of.

Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 4:57 am

magz wrote:

I suspect in USA, you think of churches differently in general - aim at universalism seems an absent concept there, so rejecting large parts of the society does not seem problematic at all.

Up until 1054 the Catholic church was the only Christian church in existence. But in 1054 the Eastern church spilt from the Western church and the Catholic church was no longer unified. And then the Protestant reformation took place leading to even less unification.

These days universalism refers to the heretical Christian doctrine of universal salvation/redemption.

The kind of universal belief required of Christians you're talking about is contained in the Nicene Creed.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 5:04 am

So, you think social and organizational rejection of groups of people for non-theological reasons is not a problem?
That was my impression after reading responses of Americans in this thread. That for Americans, an attitude of kicking out whoever one doesn't like is natural, not problematic.

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Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 5:26 am

magz wrote:

How much do you actually know about Catholic Church?
Because you speak of it like it was a political enterprise, not a community aiming at universalism.

I have around 48 years of experience with the RCC. I've discussed theology and church history extensively with Roman Catholics. The RCC is a governmental monarchy. That's why the Pope has a crown and a throne and a Pope is the Pope for life.

magz wrote:

The strawman: allowing != forcing.

That's especially important when your aim is universalism.

Allowing Africans to dance during their liturgy does not mean you force Fins to do the same.

If Catholic church behaves like a political party (i.e. has policies), it has no right to claim universalism any more.

You're the first person I've ever come across who's said that about the RCC.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 5:37 am

Cultural differences?
The relationships between Polish culture and RCC are deep and complex. I don't know if there is any other culture that combines religiousness with anticlericalism like that.

We criticize because we care.

The monarchy-style structure is just an organizational framework. What matters is the community. If it becomes rigid and reduced to following policies, it becomes dead and the whole structure does not have any purpose any more.

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cyberdad
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21 Jun 2022, 5:44 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Matrix Glitch wrote:

The question at hand is does the Church have the right to enforce it's authority regarding Church matters or not? Is it not up to the Church to decide how the Church is to display love for others?

Yes excommunication was the word I was looking for. IDK. the Catholic church has a major brand problem at the moment and they need all the allies they can get if they want to relevant in the 21st century. Liturgy and scripture, rules and law are somehwat problematic to sell to pot smoking teens who are the future of the church.

Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 5:50 am

magz wrote:

There are theological reasons. Catholicism has a very strict liturgical code. You can't just walk in and become a Catholic. You have to undergo a liturgical process to be admitted into the Catholic church. Part of that is agreeing to adhere to the Catholic catechism, creeds, ecumenical counsels, edicts etc that the ruling body of the RCC established.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 5:52 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

magz wrote:

We're talking about actions outside of liturgy.

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Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 6:00 am

magz wrote:

I've never heard of anticlericalism existing within the RCC. Clericalism and the policies of the RCC is part of what lead to the Protestant reformation. From my experience the RCC is all about rigidity. Some rigidity has been broken and reformed as was the case with Vatican II. But that's a pretty rare event.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 6:03 am

Matrix Glitch wrote:

I've never heard of anticlericalism existing within the RCC.

There's always the first time... welcome to Poland

Matrix Glitch wrote:

Clericalism and the policies of the RCC is part of what lead to the Protestant reformation. From my experience the RCC is all about rigidity. Some rigidity has been broken and reformed as was the case with Vatican II. But that's a pretty rare event.

I expect it to be the traditional Protestant narrative.

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kraftiekortie
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21 Jun 2022, 6:15 am

There were grand and epic struggles between kings and Popes during medieval times.

Monks, friars, and such were extensively parodied by writers like Chaucer—sometimes grotesquely.

Anticlericalism against the RCC was alive and strong even before the Reformation.

magz
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21 Jun 2022, 6:23 am

kraftiekortie wrote:

Chaucer and where the friars were found in the Hell :lol:

Quote:

Hold up thy tayl, thou Sathanas!' quod he;
'Shewe forth thyn ers, and lat the frere se
Where is the nest of freres in this place!'

Swarm in the Satan's arse :twisted:

More modern anticlericalism within RCC: https://www.catholicworldreport.com/201 ... ical-pope/
If the popes speak against clericalism, I don't believe anyone should seriously take clericalism for a founding value of the church. It's a problem, not a value.

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Matrix Glitch
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21 Jun 2022, 7:14 am

magz wrote:

Do you believe every group should be universally
accepted and every group's flag allowed to be flown?

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