[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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I'm sure there are other maps that don't reference trump's 2020 proposal, but this was just the first result so whatever I'm posting it:



I can see why Palestinians are pissed off over the last century of losing their territory. Complex stuff.

Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah “I tell Israel: Do not go any further. Many civilians have already died. I promise you: A civilian for a civilian.”

This means more civilians deaths promised by Hezbollah. And to make matters worse Nasrallah added that the US, not Israel or Hamas, was “responsible” for the current conflict.

“The United States is completely responsible for the war raging in Gaza … It is the US that must pay the price for the crimes perpetrated in Gaza.

“If an all-out war breaks out, you Americans will pay with your ships, your aircraft and your soldiers,” he threatened.

Should be a wake up call for the US. especially those marching for Palestine, it's likely plenty of Americans might die in the next few years.

Don't focus on two lines and that's it please Read it all. Then we'll talk about it again. I read your posts, I don't exclude the whole post and I only keep two lines.
See, Cyberdad, it doesn't work as it is fed to you by the mass media.


You can read up differently, with newspapers for 7 October 2023, decades before, see what happened and still happens. Let's forget about the sanctions because in Italy we are still waiting to see effective sanctions for what we did for twenty years of monstrosity. Then you know what happened? They chose only one culprit: Germany.

And we and Japan were not judged for war crimes. But only ours involved over 20 million people. NATO's is not a valid parameter. Try to document yourself in different ways: Even reading the part that you totally excluded from Save The Children, it also exists in English.


I'm not giving you my data. Or just my Cyberdad opinion. But the statistics are International. Do you know what the populations that are there matter for NATO useless politically?

Nothing.

Do you really expect that NATO headed by the USA and we Italians are also there, I'm not writing that we are not complicit in it, mind you.

This is serious.

We are, you and I, you and I, like allies with our Governments a justification for a constant massacre.

The two opponents are Israel and Palestine. Hamas is one of the dangerous terrorist organizations. But we are maiming, raping, starving, discriminating, depriving people of primary means of subsistence, even exterminating children.

In Gaza alone there are about half the population: are civilians and children terrorists? We are bombing them. The rest has been happening for decades, in the terrors against the Palestinians there are thousands of journalistic reports from all over the world.
What do you do, you will edit those too, you will edit also my message, will you edit your possibility of understanding? It is not a dispute between you and me.

I am also convinced that you are in good faith.

I am simply alerting you to the fact that it is not as you are told, it does not happen as you think. It's not a response to a war, there are no rights or wrongs.

Have you ever seen what happens after a bombing? I have. Imagine attacks by an Israeli army and air force on Palestinian civilians.

They destroy everything and everyone.

In this odality you are accrediting something obscene, horrendous, unjustifiable as right. Try reading an independent US source. An article from other nations. Watch a report from a nation of your choice that is objective.

Then, if after this you remain of your opinion I don't know what to tell you. If it happened to your state, what would you do without being able to react and you saw the bodies of your children torn apart by bombs?


Would you say it was right? If you saw a mass of legs, arms, eyes, limbs, crushed to pieces in the buildings, what would you think? ? Which is right?


You are discussing a war that is now at its peak. But before we get there, something has not been done: to avoid it. We are talking about decades of crimes. Against defenseless civilians.


Then of course there are two populations who have lived and they live in conditions of terror and are not their Government.

They are people, women, children.

Guess which of the two warring factions is the most militarily fragile? Guess who suffers the disasters?


<>

I'm not against you. But not I completely agree with what you write. I can't: because it's illogical.

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(Italy Terrorism 1980 Bologna)
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Here in the forum I'm autistic like you, even in private life. You are autistic like me: I am writing to you in response wishing you well.

I hope this message passes through otherwise we will never understand the meaning of our mutual posts. I also intend to write to you that one can make mistakes in evaluating it, and that you is doing it in good faith, you are convinced of this.

But you can also change your ideas after having had access to objective information.

We in Italy have suffered terrorism well into the last century. There have been immense massacres like those of 1980 in Bologna.

We know what terrorism is. And the attacks happen and are deadly even in two successive phases to cause more deaths. I wish you a good, peaceful weekend like all of you.
​

The USA is not solely responsible for the war and the situation.

Statements that can put the lives of your citizens at risk are dangerous, unfair and serious as well as serious.

The USA collaborated for peace together with other Nations and not for war.

The USA exposes itself because it makes decisions, which are now wrong because you have a President who is not at your level as people.

We too have a Government that does not represent us, and is not up to the quality of its citizens.

I hope you don't suffer any terrorist attacks.

We Italians are at risk too, the alarm is red here too.

The difference between you and us is that we take months before making a decision, while you decide quickly.

Many actions, not this one, have happened to you because others have never done anything.


You have Biden, he won't last long, then a new President.

Trump, in his particular attitudes, was highly regarded in Italy and around the world.

I don't know what will happen, maybe he will return to head of the nation, I don't know if it is still possible for him.

*Certainly there were no wars with Trump and he avoided several.

He was opposed, he had many against.

He also acted undiplomatically in his responses to domestic politics.

His mandate was clearly one of peace and not war.

In any case, I hope nothing happens against you.

For us Italians the USA is more important than Europe.

Forever.

From November 2nd on the topic of genocide:

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/gaz ... -genocide/

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 04 Nov 2023, 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

Extremism is also an issue in Israel. It will probably continue to worsen if the conflict widens further. It's not solely a Palestinian problem, not that all Palestinians or Israelis are extremists by any means! Just because some Palestinians voted for Hamas doesn't mean that they ARE Hamas. Most people do not support or endorse everything their leadership does or has done. The fact that SOME in Israel are likening the war on Palestine to a holy war similar to specific episodes in the Hebrew Scriptures is concerning. https://m.jpost.com/opinion/article-770381 Religious extremism contributed to their oppression of Palestine over the past several decades.

From October 16th:

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 04 Nov 2023, 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

It should be a wake up call for our leadership about how they handle foreign affairs.

What's happening in Gaza now is what happens in urban warfare worldwide. There is no "ethical" way to wage war and proportional responses to military assault are a fairy tale so far as I'm concerned. War crimes are a different matter, but only parties who lose wars ever face justice for those. I blame the following for the immediate situation:

1.) Hamas for carrying out a pogrom.
2.) Netanyahu because his failure to properly perform his duties as Israel's Head of State and CIC made the pogrom possible.

I would ask anyone who cares to answer seriously. What exactly did Hamas expect would happen in response to that pogrom?

Technically, it's not true that only those who lose wars ever get justice for war crimes. For example, cases can be taken to ICC regardless which side it was.

Could it just be that the west is morally inconsistent and won't sanction an ally no matter what they're doing?

No, genocide means that there's deliberate and planned attempt to wipe out an entire ethnic group. It's possible that war crimes are being committed but it's not clear that genocide is taking place. All we know is that Israel is trying destroy Hamas infrastructure like the tunnels, killing a lot of civilians in the process but that doesn't mean that they're the target.

I'd believe you, but too many of them are saying the quiet part out loud.

@ Huckleberry

Not wishing to be rude but If I respond to your entire post it would take me several pages. I do not really have the time or patience given I have no idea whether my responses are even read or acknowledged (I used to do this a decade ago and I noticed a pattern that my longer responses were simply ignored).

I respect your perspective and understand your point of view as a humanitarian.

Hasn't this been a problem that pre-dates the foundation of Israel? The US have been involved in unethical foreign colonial interventions in Mexico, the Philippines, Guam, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Hawaii. Post WWII the reconstruction of Europe and Japan was largely funded by the US so they had a big say in world affairs and still do.

Ok I don't dispute Likud's credentials (particularly in their past policy of sterilising Ethiopian refugees) and their attitude toward Palestinians as second class citizens, israelis carry the same values/views toward non-jews that Europeans carry toward non-whites but that doesn't make Likud special as the US also have cryto-fascists in the republican party,

But let's be real, Israel was set up in 1948 as a ethnonationalist Jewish state. It's foundation was built on the premise it represented a safe zone for all Diaspora Jews to return to their ancient homeland. Likud's views are just one extreme on a continuum that covers a gamut of views carried by the Jewish population.

That their actions over the years probably enables groups like HAMAS is also not in dispute. But knowing all this doesn't help the victims of the HAMAS terror attack or the families of those who can't sleep at night knowing whether their family membets are being abused by the captors in the tunnels of Gaza,.

Last edited by Cornflake on 04 Nov 2023, 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.: Fixed quoting - please make properly attributed quotes of others

There is a lot of confusion between Hamas and the Israeli reaction (let's define it that way), and what gave rise to this conflict which is not even taken up by more than a few people here. Absolute discrimination, I would say Apartheid, towards the Palestinians has existed for decades.


It is not a thing born now. It is not an attack different from those that were on the agenda there. Hamas exists because it is an aberration of an aberrant conflict.

They exterminate your family, the entire city, your entire region suffers a wound as profound as the death of too many children.... what would you do?

My answer is not a non-serious one.

I would like to understand. If you answer: be sincere, what would you really do?

They have nothing. The aberration of an aberration has Hamas product.



But are they acting to prevent it from existing?


In Italy an aberration of opposition to Communism produced the Red Brigades. And both red and black terrorism for decades. Massacre after massacre.

It wasn't a civil war, but other nations subsidized that it happened like this.

Then the social fabric was of absolute struggle. If you were even considered dressed differently you could end up very badly. If you expressed a single concept, either right-wing or left-wing, you were eliminated, killed.

Either by a Terrorist Faction or by other. In this and up to the bloodiest massacres there was popular support. The Italians were terrorists or we suffered terrorism (which is a diametrically different thing).


The exact same thing happens on different political assumptions in Palestine too.

You are different, you are not Israeli, you are a terrorist, you must be eliminated, killed, tortured, in any way.

From a people who choose exactly as heads of government people who have been carrying out such extreme behavior for decades.

Nothing different from the usual was born on 7 October last to give rise to a genocide.

The usual thing is whether we want to admit it or not, a State has created repressive forces against defenseless people. This happens. And it happened before too.

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As Italians we experienced terrorism, we suffered it. Until a few years ago. Terrorism has a color: blood red. Evil has a black color. Who doesn't want to see

(Letter to a thinking forum user.

Ask yourself good questions.)

Last edited by Huckleberry Finn on 04 Nov 2023, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.