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Niall
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15 Nov 2011, 4:30 pm

JWC wrote:

None of that has anything to do with the basis of Capitalism. You'll have to do better than give an example of one economist who may or may not be credible. You will need to give an example of something fundamental to the principles of Capitalism to back up your statement that it is "...based on false premises hiding behind fancy mathematics...", not an example of a single situation.


Sorry, I don't see any point in wading through reams of quote.

I've given you an example of the kind of mathematical theory they'll pass as peer reviewed in economics. If that kind of drivel gets into reputable journals, you're really in trouble.

Fallacies upon which economics has been based.
The "invisible hand" - refuted by Joseph Stiglitz
The notion that natural resources are infinite (plainly stupid).
The notion that the means of production (labour, natural resources, capital) are freely transportable (also plainly stupid).
Trickledown theory: proven wrong in the real world. All that's happened is that the rich have got richer, and the poor have got poorer, (or are you actually going to contend that wealth disparity has declined in the last century??! !).

I could go on, but I've got better things to do with my time.

The whole set of theories is not fit for purpose. Someone needs to go back and start all over again from first principles - verifiable principles, not blatant falsehoods.



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15 Nov 2011, 4:34 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Yes, the banks made bad economic decisions and they suffered for them, that's how free markets work. Of course, banks being banks, the government bailed them out (and they had little choice).
Rubbish. This had to do with letting people do whatever they wish, and banks being banks they tore up the furniture.

Asp-Z wrote:
The way I see it, three factors are to blame here: lack of regulation, banks, and consumers.

Lack of regulation speaks for itself, and I'm not in favour of extreme capitalism - it does need some regulation to keep the market free and the economy efficient.

The banks played their part by lending money to people without the assets to pay the money back. This was obviously a stupid thing for the banks to do, and they were too focused on short term profit to care that it'd all come to a sticky end until it was too late. And yes, some outside economists and investors saw this coming and the smartest of those made a tidy profit from their predictions.

Finally, consumers borrowed more than they could pay back. They let go of any common sense and trusted the banks to know what was best for them. This includes those who got into subprime mortgages without researching them properly and making sure they'd be able to keep up with payments after the first few years of frozen interest.

Then why make the first statement? You know very well that a market can still be free if it is still has regulation, and to be honest none of this had to really happen.



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15 Nov 2011, 4:36 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Yes, the banks made bad economic decisions and they suffered for them, that's how free markets work. Of course, banks being banks, the government bailed them out (and they had little choice).
Rubbish. This had to do with letting people do whatever they wish, and banks being banks they tore up the furniture.

Asp-Z wrote:
The way I see it, three factors are to blame here: lack of regulation, banks, and consumers.

Lack of regulation speaks for itself, and I'm not in favour of extreme capitalism - it does need some regulation to keep the market free and the economy efficient.

The banks played their part by lending money to people without the assets to pay the money back. This was obviously a stupid thing for the banks to do, and they were too focused on short term profit to care that it'd all come to a sticky end until it was too late. And yes, some outside economists and investors saw this coming and the smartest of those made a tidy profit from their predictions.

Finally, consumers borrowed more than they could pay back. They let go of any common sense and trusted the banks to know what was best for them. This includes those who got into subprime mortgages without researching them properly and making sure they'd be able to keep up with payments after the first few years of frozen interest.

Then why make the first statement? You know very well that a market can still be free if it is still has regulation, and to be honest none of this had to really happen.


The first statement is completely true.

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.



DC
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15 Nov 2011, 4:44 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

Yes, the banks made bad economic decisions and they suffered for them, that's how free markets work. Of course, banks being banks, the government bailed them out (and they had little choice).


In that case how can you possibly defend this statement of yours?

Asp-Z wrote:
Competition is good, it means that only the best possible goods and services survive while inferior products must either make up for their low quality with a low price or go out of business.


You have just admitted that providing an inferior product means that the bad company gets bailed out by the government and the bill for that is passed onto the people who made good decisions?

How exactly is this 'good'?



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15 Nov 2011, 4:46 pm

DC wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

Yes, the banks made bad economic decisions and they suffered for them, that's how free markets work. Of course, banks being banks, the government bailed them out (and they had little choice).


In that case how can you possibly defend this statement of yours?

Asp-Z wrote:
Competition is good, it means that only the best possible goods and services survive while inferior products must either make up for their low quality with a low price or go out of business.


You have just admitted that providing an inferior product means that the bad company gets bailed out by the government and the bill for that is passed onto the people who made good decisions?

How exactly is this 'good'?


Well banks are an exception because they provide a vital service. However, the banks are now facing tougher regulation, taxes, and public scrutiny, most made dramatic losses, and many of them were in fact allowed to collapse, so it's not like they got out unscathed for making such a cock up.



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15 Nov 2011, 4:51 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.



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15 Nov 2011, 4:54 pm

Niall wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.


Be careful, you might accidentally make a good case for ending all gov't payouts. 8O



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15 Nov 2011, 5:00 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
Yes, the banks made bad economic decisions and they suffered for them, that's how free markets work. Of course, banks being banks, the government bailed them out (and they had little choice).
Rubbish. This had to do with letting people do whatever they wish, and banks being banks they tore up the furniture.

Asp-Z wrote:
The way I see it, three factors are to blame here: lack of regulation, banks, and consumers.

Lack of regulation speaks for itself, and I'm not in favour of extreme capitalism - it does need some regulation to keep the market free and the economy efficient.

The banks played their part by lending money to people without the assets to pay the money back. This was obviously a stupid thing for the banks to do, and they were too focused on short term profit to care that it'd all come to a sticky end until it was too late. And yes, some outside economists and investors saw this coming and the smartest of those made a tidy profit from their predictions.

Finally, consumers borrowed more than they could pay back. They let go of any common sense and trusted the banks to know what was best for them. This includes those who got into subprime mortgages without researching them properly and making sure they'd be able to keep up with payments after the first few years of frozen interest.

Then why make the first statement? You know very well that a market can still be free if it is still has regulation, and to be honest none of this had to really happen.


The first statement is completely true.

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


Okay, so shall we put this bugbear to rest?



Niall
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15 Nov 2011, 5:04 pm

JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.


Be careful, you might accidentally make a good case for ending all gov't payouts. 8O


Not really. There's a difference between the welfare budget, which is being cut by every government that has one, and bailing out big banks.



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15 Nov 2011, 5:16 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Okay, so shall we put this bugbear to rest?


I think that's for the best.



JWC
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15 Nov 2011, 5:35 pm

Niall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.


Be careful, you might accidentally make a good case for ending all gov't payouts. 8O


Not really. There's a difference between the welfare budget, which is being cut by every government that has one, and bailing out big banks.


Yes, there is a difference; but there are also quite a few similarities. Both involve fattening ticks and leeches with the blood of our economy.



Niall
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15 Nov 2011, 5:39 pm

JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.


Be careful, you might accidentally make a good case for ending all gov't payouts. 8O


Not really. There's a difference between the welfare budget, which is being cut by every government that has one, and bailing out big banks.


Yes, there is a difference; but there are also quite a few similarities. Both involve fattening ticks and leeches with the blood of our economy.


Ah, I see. You're trolling. Grow up.



JWC
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15 Nov 2011, 5:48 pm

Niall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Niall wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:

I never once suggested I was against all regulation, in fact I have supported it in other threads in which you were present. Pure capitalism wouldn't lead to a free market, and I'm not against basic banking regulations, just as long as they don't go too far and drive the banks away.


As a naturalist, I find parasites really interesting, and most organisms have minor parasites that don't really affect their normal functions to any great extent. Big ones are best got rid of!

Yes, for anyone around here liable to take me too literally, I am drawing a comparison between big banks and parasites.


Be careful, you might accidentally make a good case for ending all gov't payouts. 8O


Not really. There's a difference between the welfare budget, which is being cut by every government that has one, and bailing out big banks.


Yes, there is a difference; but there are also quite a few similarities. Both involve fattening ticks and leeches with the blood of our economy.


Ah, I see. You're trolling. Grow up.



Nope. Not trolling. Just speaking above your head, apparently.



Niall
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15 Nov 2011, 5:56 pm

JWC wrote:
Nope. Not trolling. Just speaking above your head, apparently.


I am sick to the kind teeth of people like you comparing me to a leech because nobody will give me a job and don't have the head for business.

This conversation is over.



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15 Nov 2011, 5:59 pm

Niall wrote:
JWC wrote:
Nope. Not trolling. Just speaking above your head, apparently.


I am sick to the kind teeth of people like you comparing me to a leech because nobody will give me a job and don't have the head for business.

This conversation is over.



bwaahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha!! !!

Too funny.



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15 Nov 2011, 8:54 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I understand what capitalism is, how it works and how it's flawed.........I don't know all the details about every single thing that goes into capitalism, I have not studied economics in college so yeah I am not an expert but since when does one have to be an expert to have an opinion? I don't like the way capitalism works as a political/economic system.......because it seems to leave a lot of room for people to get f*cked over I think that is a fairly reasonable reason for not worshiping capitalism like its a god.


Generic statements about something does not understanding make. As I said, learn about how it actually works instead of talking about how evil it is.

Quote:
I think the way they have things set up in scandinavia is pretty effective for the majority of people, so I don't know that it's accurate to say U.S capitalism is the best system currently in the world......


I never said such a thing. I don't care about the US specifically at all.

Quote:
that would be an 'opinion' Also they encourage a lot of negitive behavior at an early age like at school and such.....this negitive behavior kind of seems to immitate the economic attitude of capitalism.........if it does not create massive amounts of profit screw it. If the citizens would rather have marijuana legal for instance but if the feds and corporations that obviously build and run prisons makes more from arresting people for it what are they going to do? probably keep having people arrested.


Again, you are confusing politics and economics with each other. I'm not debating political issues with you.

And since when was the legialistion of marijuana an opposition to capitalism?

Quote:
Also low prices at what cost, paying chinese workers sh*t wages while putting buisnesses that actually provide employment for U.S citizens out of buisness......capitalism is not all rainbows and cup cakes I guess.


I never said Wal-Mart was ethical.

Quote:
Oh you're not here to debate politics with me, yet you have been going on and on and on about how completely wrong you think I am about politics and economics. That makes no sense.......and as much as you try to deny it yes capitalism Definitly contributed to the problems in the world I am referring to........but you're not here to debate 'politics' so I suppose you don't care about the details.


I'm debating economics, you're the one bringing up political issues. And capitalism may cause problems - I never claimed it was perfect - but socialism causes more. As I keep telling you, look at history.


I don't see how you get that I don't know how capitalism works because your hedge fund comment was confusing to me.....I already proved I know how capitalism works by the description of it I gave........but if its not a free market competition based market then please feel free to correct me.

Well I am from the U.S so I would be mostly talking about the capitalism I've been exposed to.....sorry if you're not following what I am getting at.......what I say is from the prespective of an american citizen who is fed up with my countries politics and economic system and also fed up with the negitive ways it effects the entire world.

Well this is my thread and by the system I meant political/economic system not just one or the other.......I would be refering to the whole system...and true socialism and true communism have never existed so its impossible that either of those caused more problems than capitalism.