5-year-old stabs 3 people over a juice box

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MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:01 pm

Feralucce wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

The judicial system is set up intentionally to protect children's rights. Even the rights of kids like him. Part of that process is ensuring he gets the help he needs that those of you not agreeing with Aspie-Z say he needs. Why would you NOT want the system whose job it is to ensure that, to do that job?

Because that is NOT what the criminal justice system is set up to do.

Really? Are you really saying that those charged with crimes have no rights? You know better than that. I know you don't mean to say that.

Charged individuals have rights. Rights that are built into the laws. The justice system is set up to provide for those rights. Even if you can't afford a lawyer, they will PAY for one. Do you really think that a child would have less rights than an adult charged with murder?

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Feralucce wrote:

Yes... he did advocate throwing a 5 year old in jail. The follow up to trial under criminal code is imprisonment. See below. This is not taken out of context. That is the entirety of his response to that question

Asp-Z wrote:

Feralucce wrote:

Let's adjust it then... The twins are in a sand box and one hits the other with a shovel, this makes it assault with a weapon - a directly comparable offence. Should twin A be tried under criminal code?

Yes.

You didn't ask if the child should be put in jail. You asked if he should be tried. That is all he said yes too.

Honestly, you're reading things between the lines that aren't there.

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Last edited by MrXxx on 05 Mar 2012, 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:06 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

Hmm, I was thinking about this some more. I realize I don't have much knowledge about the criminal justice system. I looked up the minimum age for juvenile hall and it appears to be around 8 usually but will go as low as 6 in extreme cases.

Actually, I think Asp-Z has a good point, even though I find the tone slightly offensive. Maybe if juvenile hall was more appropriate for younger people (ie a specific subsection for people around 5-8 years old), then maybe it would be beneficial?) The kid needs to know that he was wrong. I don't think he deserves a criminal record, but he definitely needs to know that he was in the wrong.

On the other hand, I kind of think intensive psychological evaluation and treatment may be more appropriate. Am I being naive?

So the state should take over the job of parenting and discipline then?

If no one else is doing it, which if the kid is already acting like he is by the age of five, obviously no one is, what alternatives are there?

Generally, the state really doesn't WANT to take over raising kids. As soon as they can find an appropriate home, they'll place him. It's not a good system, and major screw ups in it make the news all the time, but it is what we have, and needs to be improved for sure.

What alternatives are there available? Surely letting those who allowed this to happen continue his care isn't one of them.

Last edited by MrXxx on 05 Mar 2012, 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Asp-Z
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05 Mar 2012, 2:06 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

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05 Mar 2012, 2:10 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

heavenlyabyss wrote:

So the state should take over the job of parenting and discipline then?

So take a little kid who has not learned any coping skills and such from their parents and use the law to punish them...rather then get to the root of the problem to help that child learn better coping skills and maybe help them get into a more healthy environment? seems pretty backwards to me.........besides how many 5-8 year olds have much concept of the legal system or justice system? it wont do them any good if they don't have the comprehension skills to understand what's going on in that sense yet.

The focus should not be on punishing a child for bad parenting.......also problems kids have should not always be blamed on bad parenting as a lot of times there are biological, environmental and other social factors. But lets just throw psychology out of this because clearly that's not relevant.

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Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:10 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

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Vigilans
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05 Mar 2012, 2:22 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

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MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:26 pm

Sweetleaf, you're assuming the justice system's only purpose is to punish. It's not the only purpose. It's purpose is justice, both for victims and for those charged with crimes. They do take into consideration the age of perpetrators.

If a five year old doesn't know that stabbing people is wrong, he either isn't being taught correctly, or he's got a condition that isn't being taken care of. The justice system is set up to address issues like that. They can either remove him to a place where he can be taught correctly, or mandate treatment, or both.

Why is it that both of you seem to be assuming that if the justice system is involved, he would automatically go to jail or prison? Do you know of a single case of them ever putting a five year old in jail or prison (in recent years), even for killing another human being, much less for assault?

Nobody here is advocating putting five year old's in jail or prison for anything. We're advocating nothing more than getting that kid the help he needs, exactly as you are. The justice system can do that. They have the power to mandate it for him as much as for the protection of society.

No one else in his life has done so.

Last edited by MrXxx on 05 Mar 2012, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:27 pm

Vigilans wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

Maybe the real issue here is that you don't have the level of faith in the justice system that Aspie-Z has. But that's a totally different issue.

Indeed; I place more faith in the criminal justice system than the parents of a kid who commits violent crimes.

oh for f*cks sake do you really think this 5 year old viewed it as committing a violent crime? they don't even know what the hell a crime is.

You make it sound like all five year olds are idiots

You make it sound like five year olds should be held to the same standards adults even if they have psychological problems, and regardless of the fact they have not developed as much cognitive ability and understanding of the legal system as adults.

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Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:29 pm

MrXxx wrote:

I am saying putting little kids in jail for 'crimes' to let them know it's wrong would give that impression. That was not my idea it was Asp-Z's idea and I am arguing against it because the notion kids should be sent to jail if they break a rule is ridiculous.

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MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:32 pm

SW, you aren't listening.

Nobody here is advocating putting the kid in jail!

Where are you getting that? You're equating allowing the justice system to handle the situation with putting him in jail. It's not a given! They aren't going to do that!

Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:33 pm

MrXxx wrote:

SW, you aren't listening.

Nobody here is advocating putting the kid in jail!

Where are you getting that? You're equating allowing the justice system with putting him in jail. It's not a given!

Like I said it wasn't my idea, I was arguing against it, I can read back and find where it was first mentioned if I need to.

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Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:37 pm

Asp-Z wrote:

As I said, I think this kid should have a criminal record. Perhaps the parents could have a fine too.

In response to all the "but this is just a kid!" posts: Children should be punished for their actions because it teaches them that said actions are wrong. If a kid does something so bad it breaks the law and you just let them get away with it, they won't learn it's wrong. If they go to a big scary courtroom and get told this action is put on record, that experience alone will scare them away from doing such things again - they'll know it wasn't acceptable.

ok maybe not jail, but a criminal record at the age of five is advocated.....that I still disagree with.

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 05 Mar 2012, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:39 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

SW, you aren't listening.

Nobody here is advocating putting the kid in jail!

Where are you getting that? You're equating allowing the justice system with putting him in jail. It's not a given!

Like I said it wasn't my idea, I was arguing against it, I can read back and find where it was first mentioned if I need to.

Have at it. It's not there. In fact, it has been summarily denied every time it's been said.

The only thing that was agreed with was allowing the justice system to handle it. You guys have been the ones equating that with putting him in jail.

I read the entire thread.

The real problem here is that some of you, including yourself, are equating allowing him to go to trial with putting him in prison. We are not.

That's why I've been saying the real issue here is faith or lack thereof, in the justice system. And that's a different discussion.

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05 Mar 2012, 2:41 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

MrXxx wrote:

SW, you aren't listening.

Nobody here is advocating putting the kid in jail!

Where are you getting that? You're equating allowing the justice system with putting him in jail. It's not a given!

Like I said it wasn't my idea, I was arguing against it, I can read back and find where it was first mentioned if I need to.

Alright fine, what I am saying is arresting a five year old, bringing them to court and charging them with a crime so they have a criminal record is the wrong way to handle it.

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MrXxx
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05 Mar 2012, 2:45 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

ok maybe not jail, but a criminal record at the age of five is advocated.....that I still disagree with.

Right. The "punishment" there is not prison, jail, or anything else that's very terrible. It's the experience of going to court. Nothing more.

Criminal records at that age are usually expunged at the age of 18 if the child appears to be rehabilitated by that age. Also, they don't even go through the same court system adults do.

You might want to read the following article:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Juvenile-Crim ... &id=410116

Sweetleaf
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05 Mar 2012, 2:46 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Asp-Z wrote:

ok maybe not jail, but a criminal record at the age of five is advocated.....that I still disagree with.

I don't think making a 5 year old go to court would help.

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