OMG! OBAMA SAID PU**Y TOO!!

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GGPViper
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20 Oct 2016, 4:14 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

I know Trump talks about the Bible a lot but I think that's just lip service to get the fundamentalist vote . If Trump wins America could be getting its first atheist president (and Mike Pence is either unaware or ignoring this).

Assuming, of course, that Trump doesn't see *himself* as God...

(Both Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln have been suspected of being atheist, BTW)

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20 Oct 2016, 4:17 pm

The odds are very high we've had atheists presidents before. It's just political suicide to declare it openly because there is such prejudice against those who lack a belief in god in America.

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20 Oct 2016, 4:25 pm

GGPViper wrote:

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Assuming, of course, that Trump doesn't see *himself* as God...

(Both Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln have been suspected of being atheist, BTW)

I think it's a forgone conclusion that Jefferson had been an atheist, though I think it's arguable with Lincoln. I tend to personally think Lincoln's theological beliefs were much more personal, never having belonged to a church, and probably of an unorthodox variety. Still, he believed the war was God's punishment on America; on the south for perpetuating slavery, and on the north for allowing it for so long, apparently believing there was a divine force in the world.

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20 Oct 2016, 4:31 pm

Adamantium wrote:

JohnPowell wrote:

I'm very sure that Hilary's fans wouldn't use Trump's wife to justify him not getting in the White House if she was a criminal.

Good lord! A point of agreement. Well, it had to happen.

As far as I know, the only thing that's been said about Mrs. The Donald is that she was briefly working without proper papers long ago. I don't think anyone was ever suggesting prosecution or that Trump should not be president because of it, but rather pointing out what a massive hypocrite that would make him for ranting on about illegals that "we don't want in OUR country."

Think you missed the point. There isn't much to get her on! If she was a criminal like Bill or an alleged rapist, a cheat, mass murderer, corrupted, liar etc. Then Hilary fans would definitely make something of it. Cause Bill will be in the White House and first man right? Haha

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RetroGamer87
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20 Oct 2016, 4:32 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Assuming, of course, that Trump doesn't see *himself* as God...

(Both Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln have been suspected of being atheist, BTW)

I thought Jefferson was a Deist.

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20 Oct 2016, 5:53 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Assuming, of course, that Trump doesn't see *himself* as God...

(Both Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln have been suspected of being atheist, BTW)

I thought Jefferson was a Deist.

At least with an atheistic bent.

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Pravda
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20 Oct 2016, 6:05 pm

He was a deist, but only because pre-Darwin it was very hard to maintain atheism logically. The Genesis explanation was socially considered "the origin" of human life, in the Western world it wasn't really thought about outside of "God created us in his image"-type terms. Even then, before the rise of quantum physics, Thomistic "there must have been a first cause" arguments made many educated people deists rather than atheists. Now we know those arguments are actually a lot less solid than they first appear, and now most theism is argued on Kierkegaardian "leap of faith" grounds instead.

Barack Obama, for the record, said in Dreams from My Father that his mother told him he needed to join a church if he wanted to succeed in black Chicago politics. A very devout community basically led by the pastors. He wasn't really interested in it beyond political necessity, and that tells me he's privately at least irreligious. The right's "he's a sooper seekrit Muslim" theories have the ironic effect of masking something that's clearly shown in his autobiography and that'd be equally scandalous to fundieville.

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Last edited by Pravda on 20 Oct 2016, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20 Oct 2016, 6:23 pm

Pravda wrote:

He was a deist, but only because pre-Darwin it was very hard to maintain atheism logically. The Genesis explanation was socially considered "the origin" of human life, in the Western world it wasn't really thought about outside of "God created us in his image"-type terms. Even then, before the rise of quantum physics, Thomistic "there must have been a first cause" arguments made many educated people deists rather than atheists. Now we know those arguments are actually a lot less solid than they first appear.

Barack Obama, for the record, said in Dreams from My Father that his mother told him he needed to join a church if he wanted to succeed in black Chicago politics. A very devout community basically led by the pastors. He wasn't really interested in it beyond political necessity, and that tells me he's privately at least irreligious. The right's "he's a sooper seekrit Muslim" theories have the ironic effect of masking something that's clearly shown in his autobiography and that'd be equally scandalous to fundieville.

I agree, Obama is at the very least irreligious.
As for Jefferson - his former friend turned political and personal enemy, John Adams, had accused Jefferson of being a raging atheist. Jefferson, not to be outdone, had accused Adams of being a raging hermaphrodite.

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Pravda
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20 Oct 2016, 8:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

As for Jefferson - his former friend turned political and personal enemy, John Adams, had accused Jefferson of being a raging atheist. Jefferson, not to be outdone, had accused Adams of being a raging hermaphrodite.

That was over the course of the 1800 election, Adams' slur against Jefferson was that he was a crypto-Jacobin. "Atheists who want to destroy the church" was a common slur against them. The latter half of the accusation was true, but even Robespierre was a deist. Also part of Jefferson's retort was that Adams was "raised on hoecakes," whatever that is.

Also, they were more enemies turned friends post-presidency than the other way around. They didn't get along very much throughout their actual careers in politics. I'm a history geek and get anal-retentive about this stuff, sorry.

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20 Oct 2016, 9:27 pm

Pravda wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Oh, absolutely nothing wrong with being a history geek, as I'm one, too!
I have to question how close Jefferson and Adams were in their post-political lives, as the last thing Jefferson was alleged to have said before dying was, "My one regret is that Adams lives." Though Adams had actually passed on hours before.

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20 Oct 2016, 9:41 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I have to question how close Jefferson and Adams were in their post-political lives, as the last thing Jefferson was alleged to have said before dying was, "My one regret is that Adams lives." Though Adams had actually passed on hours before.

Jefferson's last recorded words seem to have been "Is it the Fourth?" He then called for his servants, but his words to them have been lost.

It was Adams whose last words were reportedly "Jefferson survives" – which was already no longer true.

You should read the letters Jefferson and Adams exchanged after 1812 or so. They are delightful, and leave no doubt that the two rekindled their friendship and mutual esteem.

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21 Oct 2016, 12:45 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Ever notice how it's the fundies and holy rollers who point an accusing finger at the rest of us as sinners, or heretics, but throw their support behind a raging hypocrite like Trump? That is, when they're not getting in trouble with their own sex and financial scandals.

Money buys privileges to do what they like, I think that's what Mr Trump himself said.

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21 Oct 2016, 12:46 am

luan78zao wrote:

Jefferson's last recorded words seem to have been "Is it the Fourth?" He then called for his servants, but his words to them have been lost.

At least with DNA testing we know what he did to his underaged female servant

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21 Oct 2016, 12:47 am

luan78zao wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Well, if so, then I'm big enough to admit when I'm mistaken.

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RetroGamer87
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21 Oct 2016, 1:46 am

cyberdad wrote:

luan78zao wrote:

Jefferson's last recorded words seem to have been "Is it the Fourth?" He then called for his servants, but his words to them have been lost.

At least with DNA testing we know what he did to his underaged female servant

Wow Jefferson was as bad as Trump lol

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