Nike pulls sneakers with ‘Betsy Ross’ American flag

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Fnord
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03 Jul 2019, 12:52 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

... He's half-white, by the way. He's not the incarnation of either good or evil.

Are you implying that a person's skin color is a measure of their 'goodness'?

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03 Jul 2019, 2:24 pm

Fnord wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

The Betsy Ross flag has never been a symbol of white supremacy and nationalism...

The United States declared their independence on July 4, 1776.

2/3s of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave-owners.

The "Betsy Ross" flag was in official use by a nation of slave-owners from June 14, 1777 to May 1, 1795.

Slavery was officially abolished on December 6, 1865.

You cannot deny these historical facts.

Betsy Ross flag

Quote:

Even though this early version of an American flag is now commonly called the "Betsy Ross flag", the claim by her descendants that Betsy Ross contributed to this design is not accepted by modern American scholars and vexillologists.

The National Museum of American History notes that the story first entered into American consciousness about the time of the 1876 Centennial Exposition celebrations.In 1870, Ross's grandson, William J. Canby, presented a paper to the Historical Society of Pennsylvania in which he claimed that his grandmother had "made with her hands the first flag" of the United States.Canby said he first obtained this information from his aunt Clarissa Sydney Wilson (née Claypoole) in 1857, twenty years after Betsy Ross's death. Canby dates the historic episode based on Washington's journey to Philadelphia, in late spring 1776, a year before Congress passed the Flag Act.

In the 2008 book The Star-Spangled Banner: The Making of an American Icon, Smithsonian experts point out that Canby's recounting of the event appealed to Americans eager for stories about the revolution and its heroes and heroines. Betsy Ross was promoted as a patriotic role model for young girls and a symbol of women's contributions to American history. Historian Laurel Thatcher Ulrich further explored this line of enquiry in a 2007 article, "How Betsy Ross Became Famous: Oral Tradition, Nationalism, and the Invention of History."Ross biographer Marla Miller points out, however, that even if one accepts Canby's presentation, Betsy Ross was merely one of several flag makers in Philadelphia, and her only contribution to the design was to change the 6-pointed stars to the easier 5-pointed stars.

So the Betsy Ross Flag did not widely become a symbol of patriotism until after slavery was abolished.

2/3rds of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave owners so does that mean the 4th of July should be cancelled or changed form Independence Day to America is racist day?

There is no evidence I have seen that the slave owners who accepted the early designs for the American Flag that looked like the “Betsy Ross Flag” were doing it to promote racism. That is a recent phenomenon
The Betsy Ross flag: Has it become a symbol of hate?

Quote:

NBC News reported Tuesday that “[i]n recent years, the Betsy Ross flag has been appropriated by the white nationalist group Identity Evropa and the Ku Klux Klan, who use it to represent a time when slavery was legal in the United States.” The NAACP has also reported incidents of the flag being used by extremist groups.

Bottom line Shrapnel’s is wrong yes it has been used as a symbol of hate but not for the majority of time it has been a symbol.

As intimated earlier in this thread I do not like flags being used as fashion accessories. Further advocating this point of view is a true lost cause, Americans have been voting against my opinion with their pocketbooks for half a century. In 2019 the issue in play is should the Betsy Ross flag continue to be a symbol of patriotic mythology or should the fringe hate groups and SJW’s with the help of enabling companies such as Nike get to redefine it as a symbol of hate? Unfortunately with all the publicity what was a symbol of hate for a few fringe groups might very well become a symbol to the entire alt right. Some person committing a mass shooting under the Betsy Ross flag is almost predictable.

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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 03 Jul 2019, 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

kraftiekortie
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03 Jul 2019, 2:30 pm

No, I'm not implying that, Fnord...and you know it!

My wife is black.

All I'm saying is that Kaepernick is claiming that he kneels because he feels saluting a "racist" flag (and, hence, a "racist" nation) is not something which he feels a desire to do.

The flag itself does not symbolize racism The country is not racist. Quite a few of the residents of this nation---especially over 50 years ago----were racists.

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03 Jul 2019, 2:41 pm

I disagree with that, I don't see what is wrong with the Betsy Ross flag. I can understand not displaying the confederate flag for sure...but IDK what the correlation with slavery and the Betsy Ross flag is so yeah doesn't make sense to me.

But perhaps there is something I don't know in regards to that flag.

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kraftiekortie
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03 Jul 2019, 2:42 pm

It was our Revolutionary Flag. It was a symbol of our break from Great Britain, and the founding of our new nation.

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03 Jul 2019, 3:38 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

It was our Revolutionary Flag. It was a symbol of our break from Great Britain, and the founding of our new nation.

Precisely so I don't really see the problem with it. I mean I get the opposition to the confederate flag, that was the flag of the states that wanted to keep slavery intact so therefore it has a much bigger correlation.

But trying to argue anything that was in existence during the time of slavery is a symbol of slavery seems to be taking things a bit far.

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03 Jul 2019, 3:44 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

That's what I said above. Its not the Confederate flag (nor the Nazi flag).

=================

And while we are on the subject....

The Betsy Ross flag was designed by a woman!
And ever one of the subsequent flags of the US was designed by men!

So displaying ANY other version of the American flag is.... male chauvinism, and is bowing down to the PATRIARCHY, and offensive to the women of America (of every color)! !! !! ! I say!

I am shocked. Shocked I tell you! that we dishonor women by displaying anything other the 13 star flag!

Rip down the fifty star version I say! And burn it! I say! Because its a symbol of patriarchy!

kraftiekortie
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03 Jul 2019, 4:31 pm

By the way....I have nothing against the UK.

My "grievance" would have been with King George III and his Parliament.......

I am a confirmed Anglophile.....

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03 Jul 2019, 5:21 pm

Darmok wrote:

Funny how the original American flag wasn't an offensive symbol just a little while ago when Obama used it as a backdrop. I wonder what changed?

I know, America today is f'ed in the head and her institution's are rotted. Makes me want to just live on Mars instead.

kraftiekortie
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03 Jul 2019, 5:23 pm

Why not just go up to Canada?

Mars is really a long haul.......

ASS-P
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03 Jul 2019, 6:03 pm

...To psychoanalyse, Kapernick was raised by white adoptive parents - I've seen the speculation made that he perhaps feels defensive about " proving ' he's black.
I am sure that Americans here are aware of the '
" One Drop Rule ", the custom that holds that any discernable black blood makes you black - in the past it was law in America, it still tends to remain as custom.
Kapernick is a big Nike advertising endorsee/face, that is, presumably, why Nike tended to bend their corporate ear to him

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03 Jul 2019, 6:05 pm

...I do agree that the Betsy flag should not be abandoned to racist groups.

My life destroyed by Thorazine and Mellaril - and rape - and the Psychiatric/Industrial Complex. SOB:-(! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!

SaveFerris
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03 Jul 2019, 7:42 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

By the way....I have nothing against the UK.

My "grievance" would have been with King George III and his Parliament.......

I am a confirmed Anglophile.....

I just noticed the date , it's the anniversary of Britain's first BREXIT :twisted:

Happy 4th of July

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Fnord
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03 Jul 2019, 8:51 pm

The more I study history, the more I discover that most countries were founded on the backs of serfs and slaves. Very few countries can "take the high road" in this respect. The blood of the low-born runs deep.

Shrapnel
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03 Jul 2019, 9:05 pm

Fnord wrote:

Shrapnel wrote:

The Betsy Ross flag has never been a symbol of white supremacy and nationalism...

The United States declared their independence on July 4, 1776.

2/3s of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slave-owners.

The "Betsy Ross" flag was in official use by a nation of slave-owners from June 14, 1777 to May 1, 1795.

Slavery was officially abolished on December 6, 1865.

You cannot deny these historical facts.

I would argue that the entire nation was not slave owning, otherwise there would have been no need for Civil War.

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03 Jul 2019, 9:24 pm

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