Putin recognizes rebel territories in Ukraine as indepent !

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 3:59 am

Pepe wrote:

"What we've got here is failure to communicate", still.

"READ MY LIPS!"
Eastern NATO members had a bloody good reason to join NATO for protection.
If you can't accept this, we will have to agree to disagree.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

naturalplastic
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23 Feb 2022, 4:22 am

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

It's an issue the civilians should bring up with the Ukrainian government.

Can you expand?

I think they should put pressure on the Ukrainian government to at least acknowledge the concerns of the Russian government which are more than valid in my opinion. Only then can any sort of comprise be reached.

Ukraine are in an unfortunate geographical position and they need to work with the hand they're dealt in that sense.

I just declared Nades' bank account to be...an "independent country"! :lol:

And I will now send in my peacekeeping force (myself) to Wales, and to Nades' bank, to watch over his bank account for safe keeping. And ... the safest thing to do with his bank account is to pay off my credit cards, and then...use whats left over to ...go to Vegas for my holiday! :lol:

Oh...

And your car is ALSO now... an independent country!

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 4:48 am

Pepe wrote:

Eastern NATO members had a bloody good reason to join NATO for protection.

That's precisely what I'm trying to say, from my very concerned position.

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 5:21 am

naturalplastic wrote:

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

It's an issue the civilians should bring up with the Ukrainian government.

Can you expand?

I just declared Nades' bank account to be...an "independent country"! :lol:

Oh...

And your car is ALSO now... an independent country!

The US would have probably declared the nearest land in Mexico and independent state too if the roles were reversed.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 5:36 am

You're still missing the main part: Eastern European countries joined NATO because we knew some day Russia would start doing what it's doing now. Without NATO, Russia would just do it more easily.

Tsars did imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Soviets did thinly veiled imperialist politics of conquer and brute force, claiming they "help" and "unite".
Putin is a worthy descendant of this old tradition.

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naturalplastic
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23 Feb 2022, 5:41 am

Nades wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

It's an issue the civilians should bring up with the Ukrainian government.

Can you expand?

I just declared Nades' bank account to be...an "independent country"! :lol:

Oh...

And your car is ALSO now... an independent country!

The US would have probably declared the nearest land in Mexico and independent state too if the roles were reversed.

What do you mean "if the roles were reversed"?

Describe the scenario you are imagining.

Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2022, 5:45 am

Pepe wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Q: Would you prefer a psychopathic killer or a self-absorbed narcissist as the leader of your country?

I much prefer a third choice.

3. A leader in the throes of dementia?

Any better? :mrgreen:

Why does that have to be a third choice?
We have had that already... with Reagan and Trump.

Why do I have to be the creative one all the time? :scratch:

Why don't *you* suggest something/k.

How about a competent, intelligent leader dedicated to liberal democracy?

330 million citizens and you managed a Trump and a Biden in recent years.
I wouldn't bet your left testicle on finding what you have described. :mrgreen:

I don't think you're giving Biden enough credit. And remember, we had Obama, who was a decent enough President.

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Kraichgauer
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23 Feb 2022, 5:48 am

cyberdad wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I just don’t want the Putin Authoritarian Concept to spread.

Putin wants to spread this concept far and wide.

It's interesting that King George of England has the opportunity to send in troops into Moscow and rescue his first cousin the Tsar and his family (including Queen Victoria's grand-daughter) from the bolsheviks but he chose not to.

The stubbornness of King George to help his own family may well have changed the course of world history. Had the Tsar survived there likely would never have been communism in Russia or later in China.

Actually, Kaiser Wilhelm during the war had promised the British safe passage if they rescued the Czar and his family. The British turned him down.

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kraftiekortie
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23 Feb 2022, 5:49 am

I have Belarusian/Jewish ancestry, by the way.

I’ve been interested in Russian/Slavic culture for a while.

naturalplastic
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23 Feb 2022, 6:12 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I just don’t want the Putin Authoritarian Concept to spread.

Putin wants to spread this concept far and wide.

What does one thing have to do with the other?

It would have been nice to save the lives of the Russian Royal Family by extracting them from Moscow and whisking them away to Britain. But preventing the Bolshiviks from executing them would not have stopped the rise of Soviet Communism- the Russian Royals wouldnt have needed rescuing if the Reds didnt already control the capital and the heartland of Russia.

Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 6:23 am

naturalplastic wrote:

Nades wrote:

The US would have probably declared the nearest land in Mexico and independent state too if the roles were reversed.

What do you mean "if the roles were reversed"?

Describe the scenario you are imagining.

What if the US was actually Russia and NATO was mainly under the control of the Russia?

You can see problems developing rapidly and relations with neighboring states quickly souring once more and more fall to NATO.

Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 6:26 am

magz wrote:

Sounds no different to a lot of allied forces. Perhaps just like how the middle East looks at allied powers with distain for constant brinksmanship, Russia sees NATO in the same light and all states under it (or intending to join).

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 6:33 am

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Not liking someone's choices does not justify an invasion.
Others supporting the choice you don't like are not to blame for your reaction.

Or would you be fine with someone beating their life partner to near-death because the partner tried to leave them?

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Nades
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23 Feb 2022, 6:51 am

magz wrote:

Nades wrote:

magz wrote:

Domestic abuse seems like a strange analogy but Ukraine isn't "leaving". Ukraine has been independent of Russia for a number of decades now.

Choices always have actions for individuals and even states. I'm sure if the UK made the choice to let China come over with their aircraft, ships and troops and let them station them on mainland British bases and ports close to the French border then France and mainland Europe would make their own choices on what to do with the UK too. Sanctions? Dunno, taking areas where those bases are? Dunno. Something will happen to the UK however.

You just don't make choices like that when you know it'll seriously agro powerful neighbours. Ukraine joining NATO was purely a political sabre rattling tactic and it's backfired.

magz
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23 Feb 2022, 7:04 am

Nades wrote:

Domestic abuse seems like a strange analogy but Ukraine isn't "leaving". Ukraine has been independent of Russia for a number of decades now.

"Independent" as long as the president does what Kremlin approves. Who do you think was poisoning Yushchenko and why?

And you know what started Maidan - Ukrainian government negotiated associate contract with EU and then Yanukovych "mysteriously" refused to sign it before things got hot with mass protests and he fled to Russia, after which all the Russian "little green men" interventions started.

You could as well claim that Poland was independent when it was a USSR satellite.

Ukraine is trying to leave Russian "zone of influence" and they're paying enormous price for it. But let's be clear about it: abuse is always fault of the abuser. Always.

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kraftiekortie
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23 Feb 2022, 8:18 am

Allies are usually allies by choice. Satellites are satellites, usually, not by choice---but by force.

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