Muslims march over cartoons of the Prophet

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I am going to make a point of it.

Im waiting out this moral panic and hoping the media frenzy will calm down and maybe some real issues can be worked out. Until then this story is just hogging the news.

Im sure some media outlet somewhere is making a fortune out of all the coverage this has generated. Im too cynical for my own good i think

this is the way that i see it. islam is at a different stage of its development than other religions. i think that it would be fair to compare present-day islam to seventeenth century christianity. in the same way that a child needs to learn from its own mistakes, we can't impose our moral values on another culture without expecting strong resistance. i'm aware that this sounds rather patronising, but it's the best way that i can describe it. trying to force free-speech and democracy on a culture that is not ready for such concepts is pushing its followers deeper in to fundamentalism and delaying its "enlightenment" stage.

personally, i don't have a problem with people criticising a person like sharon. however, if you are correct that the creator of the cartoon was making a reference to his religion, then that is something that i would strongly condemn.

i have known many muslims (mainly through work) and not one of them has said that they approve of those attrocities. misogynistic and homophobic views seem to be common amongst those that i have known- so not much different from your average BNP member, really.

non-extremists do oppose the actions of extremists. we just don't hear so much about it because moderate views don't make headlines. a few years ago (in the UK), a man named david copeland targetted minority groups with nailbombs. he claimed that his motivation for these attacks was to make a stand against what he percieved as a threat to "britishness." i am british and yet i have never taken responsibilty for this dumbf**k's actions. similarly, i don't feel that regular muslims should be apologetic for crimes that another self-appointed idividual committed in the name of their religion. i would imagine that most muslims feel the same way about extremists as i would if i was tarred with the same brush as someone like david copeland.

Lets hope not the majority of Muslims support these minority of the extremists. Though when they demonstrate in the streets because of some picture they even are going to far then too. For they are just being lead in the end. Or even when they let the extremists show hate to this World as they do, and not confront these extremists views but accept them they just become apart of the problem in the end. When people allow their hate to get the best of themselves this world comes back and bites for sure. It is always the extreme few that want to change this World and use their Religion to do that. Those that allow that in the end are no better than the extremists then too. When they use their freedom of speech and demonstrate to the public they are then contributing to the hate. Many over the years have used images to show their hate or love for what they believe in the end. In a society that cherishes freedoms such as speech it should speak up then. The majority does not speak up then what do we do then. These Extremists should remember a cartoon is a cartoon and even they have used cartoons too. So who is more extreme here the cartoonist or the ones demonstrating then?

I dont believe we should impose our moral values on Muslims. If they choose to move here they should learn to respect our moral values and not try to impose theirs on us. Every kind of people or religion can usually be made into satirical cartoons. If you so strongly disagree with the whole ideology of Europe then why move here in the first place?

Well, you can call it what you like, but I think it's time to draw cartoons and otherwise ridicule them until they do grow up. It is sickening when every manifestation of immature and neurotic behavior is taken as some kind of sign that someone disrespected someone's religion, while other people who are trying to be nice and mind their own business find their lives shoved up their behinds by people who simply took a disliking to what they were doing that was none of the shovers businesses in the first place. All they are really fighting for is the "right" to shove others around, and I am very very sick of it.

I read about this. I sympathize with the Muslims, but not to the point where I think attacking an embassy is okay.

I really don't think history is quite that predictable. Why should all religions follow exactly the same paths? Islam needs one hell of a Reformation. You will find far more violence and intolerance in the Koran than in the New Testament.

And it's not a case of us imposing our moral values on another culture; it's a case of Muslims imposing theirs on ours. Denmark is not an Islamic country after all.

If you really think it's unrealistic for Europeans to expect Muslims to accept free speech without threatening to murder people (and succeeding in Theo Van Gogh's case) then an obvious first step we can take towards tackling the problem is: stop letting Muslims into Europe.
It might save Europeans a heck of a lot in welfare spending for a start.

Amen to that!! ! (no pun/ irony intended)

Speaking of imposing moral values, Muslims aren't alone in feeling like someone is imposing their moral values on them by trying to live their own lives.

In the case of the U.K., many of the Muslims to whom you are referring were actually U.K. born, and are British. We could then view the situation as some British people protesting about an aspect of British life that they do not agree with. That is their legal right as Britons.
Further, how representative are their actions, of Muslims as a whole? Many religions have adherents who use their beliefs to justify the most monstrous actions. Such people are often parts of small minorities within that religion. No-one is going to judge Christianity by the beliefs and behaviour of a few zealots of a fundamentalist persuasion. Similarly, many Muslims in the U.K. are horrified by the extremist who use Islam as a pretext for their criminal behaviour. However, once all Muslims are exposed to all this anti-Muslim rhetoric and are treated as equally culpable in terrorist acts, then the risk is that it creates more zealots. Perhaps we should reach out to the majority of Muslims who are moderate in their beliefs and are not criminals, and thus the extremists.
There’s also the issue of why a few Muslims who are born here, who are British, have become so disillusioned with life in the U.K. that they choose a life of terrorism over anything else.

What anti-muslim rhetoric? British citizens have even less excuse to act like barbarians from centuries ago. Just because im pro-free speech and against shariah law being imposed here doesnt give anyone the right to go bombing or threatening to kill people here.

If it was Christians threatening to behead people over defamation of Jesus or something i would be just as critical (in fact some here probably find me most annoying in my criticism of christianity) but the fact is that it wasnt and that the muslim religion is still well behind others when it comes to others when it comes to moving with the times. Muslims arent the only people that recieve discrimination but to here some people youd think they were.

There is a particular problem of intolerance among muslim people's at the moment. That doesnt make me anti-muslim just over saying that. It's called opening my eyes and not BSing. I dont mind admitting despite being from Irish stock that Irish gypsies and their behaviour is a big problem in England right now. It's about respect for the country you are raised in and not trying to impose your culture (or that of your parents etc) on the natives.

Europe and Denmark generally hold free speech more important than they hold religious peoples will to scare people out of critisizing or caricaturing them in any way. Deal with it or peacefully protest but if you try and force that will on people you shouldnt be surprised if there is a backlash over the people that are trying to do this.

Minority or not violent fundamentalism seems to be a bigger problem amongst Islamic adherents than elsewhere. If i am anti-muslim because i believe in people's right to make a cartoon without being in fear of their lives then i guess i am then. More likely you have just tried to defame me as anti-muslim just because i dont want to roll over and accept the imposing of shariah law in Britain.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2006/02/333390.html

Someone sent me this link today.

Ignoring the fact is blatently biased/conspiracy theory stuff what do you think of this potential scenario of pre-emptive nuclear strike followed by invasion into Iran

do in the effort of sounding unbiased, has anyone here protested and rioted over the same kinds of things said aginst jews and Christians by muslim papers/TV stations/etc?


I havent seen my countrymen burning stuff over it....


The entire thing is a stepping block and an excuse to riot aginst and spread hate aginst the free world.

well, i think that christianity is the closest model for comparison that there is. i believe that eventually people discover for themselves that certain systems aren't working and then replace them with new ones. when allowed the freedom to develop at its own pace, of course.


oh, really? when was the last time that a muslim country invaded a western country, then? they don't have the power to impose their views on western society with any significant impact.

What's that got to do with anything? I thought this was meant to be a thread about the Danish cartoon controversy, which has been a good illustration of Muslims thinking they have the right to tell the West what they can and can't do (i.e., imposing their moral values on us).
Are you saying that when you spoke of the West "imposing its moral values" on Muslims and "forcing free speech" on their culture, you weren't talking about the publishing of the cartoons, you were talking about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (or maybe something else that the "Muslim world" is supposed to be angry at us about)?

There are over 40 Muslim countries in the world. America and Britain have invaded two since the 1950s. Maybe the fact that there are so many people who see this as "an attack on Islam" is part of the problem.



There are several who are very willing to try. And if you think they've had no significant impact, then I disagree. This is how this whole cartoon thing started. A children's writer couldn't find anyone to illustrate his book on Islam because all the illustrators he approached feared for their lives, which raises the question: do we really have freedom of speech in the West if people can be so intimidated by thugs?
There's been so much crap written in the press about this situation regarding what is and what isn't offensive. So much of it misses the point. The point, again, is: are we going to let ourselves be intimidated by a bunch of thugs?
Newspapers in Britain obviously have been. At least The Telegraph was honest enough to admit they were just too scared to publish the cartoons without coming out with loads of bullcrap "analysis" you see in papers like The Guardian.
Some of this analysis has been priceless. You get people saying things like, "freedom of speech does not include the freedom to cause offence".
To which the answer should be, "duh. Yes it does. That is exactly what freedom of speech is."