Risk-taking is back for banks 1 year after crisis

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Coadunate
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13 Sep 2009, 12:46 pm

My son was in Iraq for more than a year. He told me a little story. One time his team was furtively waiting in a certain spot and observing when a pack of dogs came over and started to bark at them giving away their position. First they tried chasing away the dogs but they would not take heed. So my son shot and killed the dog closest to him hoping that all the other dogs would be afraid and run away. It didn’t work out that way. All the other dogs continued to pester the soldiers proving dogs will be dogs. This is the story I remembered when I read the following news article.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9AMGK9O0



Douglas_MacNeill
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13 Sep 2009, 7:18 pm

The dog story I'm thinking about as I read this
is the one about dogs returning to their own vomit.

It has happened to them [the false teachers of the Good News]
according to the true proverb, "The dog turns back to its own
vomit," and "The sow is washed only to wallow in the mud."
--2 Peter 2:22, New Revised Standard Version.



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14 Sep 2009, 7:20 am

As logn as it is lucrative for banks to take risks, they will. Pretty logical, in fact, because they want to make money fast.



ruveyn
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14 Sep 2009, 7:29 am

ChangelingGirl wrote:
As logn as it is lucrative for banks to take risks, they will. Pretty logical, in fact, because they want to make money fast.


Lending money has an inherent risk. Banks make money by lending money.

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Douglas_MacNeill
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14 Sep 2009, 5:22 pm

ChangelingGirl wrote:
As logn as it is lucrative for banks to take risks, they will. Pretty logical, in fact, because they want to make money fast.


ChangelingGirl, ruveyn: I don't think you have the point of that last financial crisis.

At its core was a re-packaging of relatively high-risk loans to make them
appear to be low-risk investments. In short, an ethical failure in the form
of defrauding people who placed their money in investments they would have
avoided if not for slick marketing practices.

I'm alluding to the "sub-prime" mortgage fiasco, which exploded in everybody's
face when the time came to renegotiate the underlying mortgages.
Once that renegotiation came about, would-be borrowers could not pay the new
and higher interest rates; once this happened, the mortgages became bad debts
that the banks could not sell.

We remember the rest; Lehman Brothers going into bankruptcy, the present
recession, and so on.



0_equals_true
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15 Sep 2009, 8:03 am

The dog story is like one of the flash backs which is a running theme the film Waltz with Bashir[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BuVyMa_-ms[/youtube]



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15 Sep 2009, 9:47 am

I think it's an interesting test of the relative power of the US government and the raveningly ambitious rich/wannabe rich (expletive)s of the financial world. I think the government will lose, and be unable to enforce much change upon them, but we can live in hope.


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Tim_Tex
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15 Sep 2009, 11:30 am

What kind of risk taking is involved?


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ruveyn
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15 Sep 2009, 3:10 pm

Douglas_MacNeill wrote:

I'm alluding to the "sub-prime" mortgage fiasco, which exploded in everybody's
face when the time came to renegotiate the underlying mortgages.
Once that renegotiation came about, would-be borrowers could not pay the new
and higher interest rates; once this happened, the mortgages became bad debts
that the banks could not sell.

We remember the rest; Lehman Brothers going into bankruptcy, the present
recession, and so on.


The bond traders were getting into some bizarre schemes. They were creating debt based on debt, to wit, derivatives. Some of the derivative packages were put together and sold in pieces, called trances. One had to be a PhD. in statistics to even conceive of what these bond traders were doing. In the good old days bonds were certificates of debt and there were real economic assets backing up the debt. On default, there were real live concrete assets that could recoup a default. Modern bond trading has become cross between String Theory and modern non-representative art.

I just complete recording a book on derivatives and arbitrages for blind and dyslexic end users. I am a trained mathematician (which is why I was tasked with recording this book) and to tell you the truth, I could barely comprehend the underlying theory of derivatives. LIBORs, tranches and God Knows What. About half way through my recording task, the bond market and investment market came apart at the seams and crumbled into a heap. Given what I was reading, I was not the least surprised. The Bond Traders created a gosimer phantasmagoria, a veritable mandella of illusions. It was all smoke and mirrors.

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15 Sep 2009, 11:45 pm

Thank you ruveyn for this insight, I could see what happened with the housing market and some of the other parts of the mess but the bond market mistifed me.



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16 Sep 2009, 8:57 am

Investment banks can get money from the fed for 1/4%, there is a lot of bad paper, so they buy it up, package it with some good, and sell it all at a steep discount. A mortgage is not worth face value.

So a 6% mortgage bought at 50% yields 12%, and packaged with some that will default, but gain the property in the process, the losses shield the wins, and the losses can then be sold again, for they now own the property, discounted, and even at a 50% sale will make money.

No one wants the bad paper, but it can be passed on with the good. Since no one can tell what is good, what is bad, the pool is split, tranch one gets paid from the performing loans, a secure investment, with a set but low return, two gets a higher return from the more risky middle, and three is based on assset recovery from the failures, which are still a house somewhere.

Investment banks are part of the system, they fund the Fannie and Freddy loans, and resell the paper, when it all caved in they were left holding the governments bag. Government made the easy mortgage money available, passed the laws, had the programs, and when it fell, they bailed out the system.

It had to be rated AAA and insured to sell the Mortgage backed Securities, and it was the government that backed it, then had to buy it back, AIG.

Now they have to get rid of it. It has to be priced where people will buy it. To resell the losers after the whole thing sorts out, they need to sell a lot of paper to fund the mortgages.

In a second program they have been buying stock, driving up the market, for instituional investors, States, Pensions, Insurance, were insolvent.

It has never been anything but paper and promises, smoke and mirrors to the people.

Government losses come as future inflation, which will fit the numbers on the mortgages with cheaper dollars.

The real problem is the economy was based on the consumer, since the 60s, that is the real bubble to come. There is also a large private banking system, and 89 less this year, who hold mortgages not just on housing, but on malls and office buildings. Reviving shopping and office need is not so easy.

Banks have to make a profit before they can sell off the losses, for if they sell now, they become undercapitalized, get taken over, and the FDIC has a huge pile of assets held for future sale.

It is complex, for all market sectors fell at once, and there is nothing to lead to a recovery in housing, consumers, commercial, manufacturing, so we float along looking for the next bubble.

We might be floating for a decade.



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16 Sep 2009, 10:25 am

CRD wrote:
Thank you ruveyn for this insight, I could see what happened with the housing market and some of the other parts of the mess but the bond market mistifed me.


There really has not been any new since the great tulip boom/bust of the 1600s. It is the same old story. People want a guarantee of something for little or no risk. That is why the crook Bernie Madoff was able to promote his Ponzi scheme for so long. As long as the suckers are willing to buy crapdoodle there will be slick operators to sell it.

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17 Sep 2009, 9:30 am

Maybe those pieces of s**t need to die.


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ruveyn
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17 Sep 2009, 9:46 am

Anubis wrote:
Maybe those pieces of sh** need to die.


Kill one and two pop up to take the place. It is like trying to get rid of toadstools after the rain.

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17 Sep 2009, 9:52 am

ruveyn wrote:
Anubis wrote:
Maybe those pieces of sh** need to die.


Kill one and two pop up to take the place. It is like trying to get rid of toadstools after the rain.

ruveyn


Then we deter them with public executions and restricting the shift of capital. Then they'll see who's right.


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17 Sep 2009, 11:02 am

I am a downsider and contrarian, and cheap.
Some look for gains, but few have the smarts, so they buy into words.
When your house is going up at 20% a year, sell, for long term, 3% is closer, so they were selling future increases.
You are much better off owning stock that drops by half, which can be sold tomorrow, than being stuck with a house that cannot be sold, and has high running costs to keep.

The problem comes from people. The Government was promoting home ownership, Three bedroom two bath $150,000. Builders and realtors, bankers, wanted to sell $450,000 homes.

With median income at $50,000, and housing at five times income, $250,000, it is debt servitude.

Crossing over that line took rising prices to sell more units, and the suckers bought.

For a program designed to stop the redlining of minority neighborhoods, make mortages available, it did, low income people did make great gains in becoming home owners, in their old neighborhood. With a low down payment and long terms, they became owners of some of the cheaper homes, and they are the good ones, still making payments.

The problems come from the equal part of the law that let desert developers in Arizona build hundreds of $500,000 homes, which speculators then bought to flip. California, Nevada, Arizona, Florida, are most of the problem.

The price of a house in Texas has hardly changed, even in Austin where Dell has laid off many by shifting production offshore.

There is hardly any mortgage money, surplus housing, but they did not see the 50% price drop.

The basic problem is too much money, looking for a place to invest, and few investments. Oil is considered to be 50% people seeking a shelter, which drives the price up. We have not had inflation, but gold tripled.

There are no good investments, except tulip bulbs, for at one flower a year, limited production, sells for more every year, and the bulb produces another the next. Tulip Ranches are the future, and with modern DNA knowledge the Black Tulip will soon be possible, and think what that will sell for.

Over time investments in the market double in 7 years and nine months, and the value of money declines by 50% in the same time.

Losses can be seen as a good thing because they reduce the money supply. In our economy losses are easier to generate than wins.

The simple version, there is one pie, it is cut into smaller pieces, which sell for more, and then they are the pie cutting fees, but there cannot ever be more than one pie.

While Wall Street and the Governments are Self Regulating Ponzi Schemes, all needing new investors to pay off the old, there are limits to growth.

In 1300 Ibn Khaldun documented how all governments and economies before his time had fallen. All after his time have followed the same path, consuming resources, over regulating, and devalueing the money.

Almost all last less than 100 years, the only ones that have lasted longer were the looters, Rome, Spain, England, America, who pillaged other lands and people.

Rome fell to Chinese silk, they would only take gold and siver in payment, in 100 years Rome was issuing bronze and lead coins.

Spain looted so much gold in the Americas that it drove down the price of gold in Europe. They spent it on Chinese silk.

England and it's sub company America looted other peoples lands for raw materials, and markets for manufactured goods. Since Ghandi wove his own cloth, made his own salt, that has not been working.

Locating factories in China only had them studied, copied, and the copies went after the same market, with over a billion people and cheap labor.

We import more manufactured goods from China than what we spend for imported oil. It has been a long time since our exports exceeded our imports. Our China credit card bill is near a trillion, and rising. Just the interest paid on their Treasurys is $30 billion a year on the debt. Last year they stopped taking our IOUs.

We are supporting the economy by war, a billion a day, some two trillion that mostly went to keep war production factories going. It was only a small part of the defense budget.

Rome had the same problem, Caligula could not pay for the grain and oil Rome bought from Numidia, so he went to war with them, one way out of a debt. Claudius inhereted the war, and found he could not stop it without caving in the economy. After seven years they won, and that caved in the economy.

By the official fall of Rome, 410, the small group of invaders report few people, many living in the tombs built outside the city, and no local force able to fight. It was a ruins, they left.

For the next 500 years there are no books, and only local village and tribal governments.

Khaldun was writing at the end of the golden age of Islam, 1100 to 1300, and he knew it. Just as he predicted the Turks came and took over. Being a primitive people from the steppes, they thought only of gold and silver, and limited enforced law in the market place, they lasted six hundred years.

One cannot get out of history.