Firefighters let family's house burn down....

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Tory_canuck
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06 Oct 2010, 2:36 am

In rural Alberta, the fire departments are volunteer fire departments and the taxes from the town pay for it. That is how it was done in Vegreville.


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Zara
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06 Oct 2010, 8:55 am

The firemen should have did their duty and put out the fire. Fine, if they want to be greedy about it they can charge the guy a hefty emergency fee for not paying the $75 earlier. The guy was willing to pay them whatever they would have asked for so honestly it was just plain cruel and unusual punishment on the part of the fire department to stand by and watch it burn.

Yes the owner was foolish for taking his chances and not paying the fee, but the FD acted irresponsibly and highly unethically. What if there had been someone trapped in the house? Would they have just watched it burn along with whomever was in there?(Some dogs and cats did die in that fire) What if this fire left unchallenged erupted into a forest fire and took the whole neighborhood? Fat chance their one truck will matter then and lawsuits would be coming.

Simple solutions here. They either need to have a tax to cover the extraneous fire services or form their own FD. I'd say slightly increasing property taxes to pay for this fire service and then they'll all be covered with no fuss. (Yes people, tax increases can be beneficial!)

Lastly, these firemen aren't firemen. They're a disgrace. They couldn't even defend their choice to the media and turned tail and ran. :roll:


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visagrunt
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06 Oct 2010, 2:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:
If you don't feed a starving man out of your own pocket, should you be sued?

ruveyn


To distinguish here:

1) This is not a case of private individuals failing to perform a voluntary duty, it is a case of public servants failing to carry out a public service (and an emergency service, at that).

2) The homeowner offered to pay "whatever it would take," and the fire chief had the discretion to authorize the department to extinguish the fire. The Chief chose not to exercise that discretion. A harm that was avoidable occurred because of that official's exercise of discretion.

3) What cost will accrue to the county, now. A family is left homeless. A property's value is diminished (thus diminishing the tax revenue that property will generate), and the political agenda of the small-government commission is exposed for creating a public danger.

It also bears noting that this is not an individual's pocket, but the public pocket. I don't deny that the public purse is filled from my taxes--but I never pretend that those taxes are my money. Once I have paid my taxes, it ceases to be my money, and it becomes our money. I don't feed the homeless out of my pocket. But the homeless are fed out of our pocket. It is an important distinction.


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06 Oct 2010, 11:09 pm

What a world of make believe.

The Public Till has been Privitized by Ellected Officials.

If you want access, it has to be purchased. Congress and the Grand Negus of DS9 are typical, lets hear the clink off metal if your wants would be heard.

The Fire Scam, it is insured, at least everything with a debt is. Insurance companies where given a chance to, Support your Local Firefighters, and those who do not pay to play will find that the fire fighters went to the wrong address, or going to the right address, for a trash fire in the yard, chopped holes in the roof and pumped in water, just to be sure.

It is your local fire Chief who will be the cause of fast response and light damages, or more damage from the response than from the fire.

The Public Till is only the starting point for Government, Fire Inspections, Building Inspections, are done under Public Law, but paid for in cash, will stop, or they will send the blind guy. All food service is paying something extra for Goodwill.

Now there is only so much that can be done locally, the going rate to be left alone, the extra to drive someone else out of business with government help, but Insurance Companies have a big risk, and should pay accordingly.

The Colorado fire was started by an Volenteer Fireman, for niether the locals, nor the insurance companies would pay for full time professional firefighters, with full pay, benefits, retirement, so they were sent a tens of million dollar message, it would be cheaper to fund us.

There are complaints about some insurance companies having their own fire fighters, for whole areas have been allowed to burn, while others, the Mayors house, have been fully defended, even if not near the fire. Supporting local First Responders has not worked for Insurance, Fire and Police, then County level, State, leaves many hands out for buying friendship, but nothing sure when a disaster strikes.

A store window gets broken, the alarm goes off, the police are soon on the scene, and the report says, ten 43" Plasma TVs were removed through a broken window, that had a one foot hole. A whole truck load was stolen in five minutes, and the thief made a clean getaway.

Support you local Police. Or they will support themselves. Or both.

Police and Fire only get the crumbs, Sewer and Water are big bucks. Local workers laying pipe at $990 a foot, when the job could be contracted for $200. Endless money from Bond Issues, and no one watching.

Even if caught, During Katrina, we found that the 40' sheet pilings signed off on by Engineers, Local Governent, State Government, And the National Corp of Engineers, were in fact only 20 foot, and 1570 people died. A Federal Judge sealed all the records for fifty years.

In Government, one hand washes the blood off of the other.

I buy surplus, They list new cost, and for some reason the same generator I can buy new for $2,000, gets sold to the Department of Defense for $19,500, from a preferred supplier, who I could not bid against. All preferred suppliers have a Member of Congress involved somehow.

During Iraq, there was no body armor, when it had been paid for, parents were buying off the shelff and sending it, Kevlar helmets were old, and not up to the job, being shot in the head at close range. Spectra is much better, lighter, works, and is made of recycled plastic bags, but the contracts were not right for preferred suppliers, who had the Kevlar contract. So the troops went out with old hemets, no vests, and no Humvee Armor.

Iraq is about Truth, Justice, The American Way, and who gets the no bid contracts in the oil fields.

Afganistan is the third British try at the Poppy Fields, There might be some minerals, no oil, the only thing worth having is the best drug production on Earth. The year the Taliban reduced production to zero, the west invaded, now production is larger than ever. Opium is bigger money than oil, and we have hit and passed peak oil.

Terrorists are other people in the business.



ruveyn
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07 Oct 2010, 5:17 am

Inventor wrote:
What a world of make believe.

The Public Till has been Privitized by Ellected Officials.

If you want access, it has to be purchased. Congress and the Grand Negus of DS9 are typical, lets hear the clink off metal if your wants would be heard.

The Fire Scam, it is insured, at least everything with a debt is. Insurance companies where given a chance to, Support your Local Firefighters, and those who do not pay to play will find that the fire fighters went to the wrong address, or going to the right address, for a trash fire in the yard, chopped holes in the roof and pumped in water, just to be sure.

It is your local fire Chief who will be the cause of fast response and light damages, or more damage from the response than from the fire.

The Public Till is only the starting point for Government, Fire Inspections, Building Inspections, are done under Public Law, but paid for in cash, will stop, or they will send the blind guy. All food service is paying something extra for Goodwill.

Now there is only so much that can be done locally, the going rate to be left alone, the extra to drive someone else out of business with government help, but Insurance Companies have a big risk, and should pay accordingly.

The Colorado fire was started by an Volenteer Fireman, for niether the locals, nor the insurance companies would pay for full time professional firefighters, with full pay, benefits, retirement, so they were sent a tens of million dollar message, it would be cheaper to fund us.

There are complaints about some insurance companies having their own fire fighters, for whole areas have been allowed to burn, while others, the Mayors house, have been fully defended, even if not near the fire. Supporting local First Responders has not worked for Insurance, Fire and Police, then County level, State, leaves many hands out for buying friendship, but nothing sure when a disaster strikes.

A store window gets broken, the alarm goes off, the police are soon on the scene, and the report says, ten 43" Plasma TVs were removed through a broken window, that had a one foot hole. A whole truck load was stolen in five minutes, and the thief made a clean getaway.

Support you local Police. Or they will support themselves. Or both.

Police and Fire only get the crumbs, Sewer and Water are big bucks. Local workers laying pipe at $990 a foot, when the job could be contracted for $200. Endless money from Bond Issues, and no one watching.

Even if caught, During Katrina, we found that the 40' sheet pilings signed off on by Engineers, Local Governent, State Government, And the National Corp of Engineers, were in fact only 20 foot, and 1570 people died. A Federal Judge sealed all the records for fifty years.

In Government, one hand washes the blood off of the other.

I buy surplus, They list new cost, and for some reason the same generator I can buy new for $2,000, gets sold to the Department of Defense for $19,500, from a preferred supplier, who I could not bid against. All preferred suppliers have a Member of Congress involved somehow.

During Iraq, there was no body armor, when it had been paid for, parents were buying off the shelff and sending it, Kevlar helmets were old, and not up to the job, being shot in the head at close range. Spectra is much better, lighter, works, and is made of recycled plastic bags, but the contracts were not right for preferred suppliers, who had the Kevlar contract. So the troops went out with old hemets, no vests, and no Humvee Armor.

Iraq is about Truth, Justice, The American Way, and who gets the no bid contracts in the oil fields.

Afganistan is the third British try at the Poppy Fields, There might be some minerals, no oil, the only thing worth having is the best drug production on Earth. The year the Taliban reduced production to zero, the west invaded, now production is larger than ever. Opium is bigger money than oil, and we have hit and passed peak oil.

Terrorists are other people in the business.


Your cynicism is brutal, but it is most likely very accurate.

ruveyn



Michael_Stuart
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07 Oct 2010, 6:21 am

I love how neutral the article is.

Personally, I'm a big fan of limited government. But when I speak of "limited government", I don't mean privatizing things like the Fire Department. The Fire Department is basically public defense, which is something the market isn't fit for. You can't privatize the military or law enforcement, either. Such an ideal is something for anarchists, not libertarians.



Chevand
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07 Oct 2010, 2:35 pm

Zara wrote:
The firemen should have did their duty and put out the fire. Fine, if they want to be greedy about it they can charge the guy a hefty emergency fee for not paying the $75 earlier. The guy was willing to pay them whatever they would have asked for so honestly it was just plain cruel and unusual punishment on the part of the fire department to stand by and watch it burn.

Yes the owner was foolish for taking his chances and not paying the fee, but the FD acted irresponsibly and highly unethically. What if there had been someone trapped in the house? Would they have just watched it burn along with whomever was in there?(Some dogs and cats did die in that fire) What if this fire left unchallenged erupted into a forest fire and took the whole neighborhood? Fat chance their one truck will matter then and lawsuits would be coming.

Simple solutions here. They either need to have a tax to cover the extraneous fire services or form their own FD. I'd say slightly increasing property taxes to pay for this fire service and then they'll all be covered with no fuss. (Yes people, tax increases can be beneficial!)

Lastly, these firemen aren't firemen. They're a disgrace. They couldn't even defend their choice to the media and turned tail and ran. :roll:


First of all, if Mr. Cranick should be suing anyone, it should be the Obion County commission that rescinded the establishment of a countywide fire department, not the firefighters themselves. Mr. Cranick has been interviewed a few times by Keith Olbermann since the incident, and has told his side of the story. The actual firefighters were quite remorseful that they had to watch his house burn down, but they were under strict directives from the politicians-- all Republicans-- in charge of running the county, and possibly could have lost their jobs had they intervened. You are right that Mr. Cranick offered to pay on the spot to get them to save his home. I'm not sure why they couldn't have taken him up on that offer. And I'm not condoning what they did, and I'm not saying that I don't think they should have disobeyed orders in this case-- but I will say the real problem here was the local government, and not the firemen.

In the bigger picture, though, this is symptomatic of a much more destructive development in American politics, and that is the right wing's blind allegiance to Randian fend-for-yourself free-market capitalism. The Republicans have been chanting that mantra of laissez-faire and small government so long, and the extremists in the party have been so successful in labeling anything even resembling government regulation as "socialism", that it is beginning to infringe upon services that have always been socialized in the US-- public services that are necessary to the common good, like fire and police departments. Some Republicans now are even talking about privatizing the VA, and leaving our military veterans out on a limb. This fervor they have for privatizing everything in sight must stop, if there is any hope of salvaging the economy. It's obvious that the Republicans, and quite a few of the Democrats, really do not care about individual rights-- they care about the rights of corporations, and protecting their own kickbacks. It is erroneous, and I daresay arrogant, to propose that the US has not always been, and should not continue to be, a mixed system of capitalism and socialism. Some things should be privatized, but by the same token, some things MUST be socialized-- particularly, if the whole point of establishing the government in the first place is to protect its citizens, where the welfare of the people is concerned. The people can't do everything for themselves-- and government must have the power to do those things the people cannot.



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07 Oct 2010, 3:22 pm

Government should always go through the exercise, "Make it or buy it?"

Now, the criteria for evaluation are different. In the private sector you have one, and only one metric for these decisions--making money. In the public sector the decisions are much more complex. Should a hospital administrator improve oncology, or expand the ER? Should a school provide a gifted program, or enhance resources for learning disabilities? These kinds of decisions cannot be subjected solely to a money metric.

Privatizing government programs does not actually make 'government' smaller. Certainly it reduces the number of public servants--but the money that would have gone to pay public servants to deliver a program now goes to a private agency that becomes an agent of government. Perhaps they can deliver the program more effectively--but they expect to make a profit for doing so. At the end of the day, this still might be the most effective way for government to do its job, but that does not mean that it is in every case.


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