Cuban missile crisis: closer than you thought to WW III

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Kraichgauer
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16 Oct 2012, 11:42 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I have to wonder - would the CIA and the KGB have allowed it to come to a nuclear holocaust? I have to think maybe the spooks would have been working in the shadows to stop it.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't know. I've read/researched/written (papers reviewed by actual historians :P ) a lot of stuff about strategic bombing, the cold war and nuclear game theory.

I really think it depends on the time period and the scenario. In the 70's or 80's with a slower buildup, maybe...

During the 50s or 60s with a fast moving situation like in Cuba, I don't know.

Like Bobby's notes claim, the people advising JFK were bright, able, dedicated people who loved the US. But if 6 of them had been president, they would have likely caused a nuclear war.

I think the same sort of people, thinking the same sort of thoughts, would have been working in the CIA and the KGB at the time.

PS

I'd love to sift through all those "new' papers at the Kennedy library! :D


Absolutely.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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16 Oct 2012, 3:01 pm

Yeah I probably would not have been born because my parents would also not be born because of the nucular blasts. Good thing it did not happen.



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25 Oct 2012, 1:09 am

I don't understand the big bother back then with nukes in Cuba when the nukes on the other side of world are literally in your front yard anyway (ICBMs).



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25 Oct 2012, 1:36 am

Dillogic wrote:
I don't understand the big bother back then with nukes in Cuba when the nukes on the other side of world are literally in your front yard anyway (ICBMs).


It has to do with lead time in the event of a launch; if you launched a missile at Washington from Russia, there would be about 30 minutes warning, where as a launch from Cuba could arrive in minutes. Such a thing would make a successful first strike possible, as there wouldn't be enough warning to evacuate the leadership and organize a counter-strike before the nukes hit. There was a similar strategy later on involving submarines and a suppressed arc launch, which would sacrifice accuracy for surprise when launching a strategic warhead from close range.


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Dillogic
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25 Oct 2012, 6:54 pm

Makes sense at first glance, however:

-Shouldn't be hard to make procedure that plans for the event of a small decapitation strike on the government; in fact, I'm sure such is already in place for the simple fact that an unprovoked attack most likely won't come from weapons that create adequate warning (if enough weapons are close by to suppress your counter-strike rather than proactive defense, then it's probably wise to assume something is amiss)
-it allows you to put your own weapons in their "backyard", and if they protest, you just point out the double standard and say that if you remove them from ours we won't put them there

Plus, ballistic missiles have always been able to be launched from subs anyway (surfaced to begin with, but that's no problem, as nothing is going to pickup a surfaced sub unless there's a bird or boat in the area); way before the Cuban crisis. It's classified up the wazoo whether it's always been possible to detect all incursions of subs into friendly waters; I bet lots of subs slipped by during the Cold War.



ruveyn
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25 Oct 2012, 8:55 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

LeMay was a crazy sob.

.


That crazy sob did a great deal to eliminate Japan's ability to make war and to put the Fear into the Japanese people. The two A-bombs completed the job. LeMay, in effect, burned Japan down to the ground.

If there is ever another war, I want a crazy sob like LeMay on my side.

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26 Oct 2012, 12:55 am

There were no small nukes. Invading Cuba was an illegal act.

The real play was remove your bombs from Turkey, and it worked. Turkey was just too close, same for Cuba.

The invasion force was gathering in south Florida, and Cuba had enough to take out the whole East Coast. Launch the invasion, bombing runs, it would have forced the launch of everything. People do have a right to defend themselves.

The rich boy with mob connections played dirty, he got told to shut up.

He faced dying for his country, and taking a hundred million with him over being a bully, spoiled brat, so he agreed to leave Cuba alone, and take the nukes out of Turkey.

Was it something? The subs posed just as much danger, but they were Russian. Losing a war with Cuba would leave you blown up, and even if Cuba was blown to bits, the East Coast, Gulf Coast, would still be gone.

In many ways it was the start of the end of the Cold War, weapon reductions, backing away from the idea of a world war being winable.

Iraq and Afganistan did not have Russian suppport, Iran and Sryia do. Talk of invasion will be stopped. Bombing countries because you do not want them to have technology will not be allowed.

The change is, Europe is beyond broke, as is the US and Japan. Our economies have stalled, because instead of education, new technology, it was spent on war and other frauds.

The first shot of the new war has been launched by Iran, who first quit selling oil to Europe, and now are going out of business, the whole 4,000,000 barrels a day.

Maybe other producers, the Saudis, can make up 2,000,000 barrels a day, but the shortfall is going to drive up the price.

With the west at near recession, only due to book keeping, we have been in decline for forty years. With no one but the Fed to buy our IOUs, not even the Saudis. Debt cannot expand forever.

We export threats and invasions, and manufacture war machines. Business has been bad lately. We make it, but at the cost of maintaining the health, education, welfare, of our nation. Besides that, we lost in Cuba, Nam, Iraq, Afganistan.

Also the weather has been bad.

Costs are growing, very soon we will be able to pay for Social Security and education, food, or the war machine, but not both. So get ready to bomb grandma, and level PS 13, because this is war. The useless people who live outside our Millitary Bases are wasting our needed Millitary Supplies.

Only a millitary State with Helots to serve them can preserve Freedom. The rest are tools of the enemy, and we must be strong to survive! Only those who survive Basic Training have earned the right to live!

Nothing ever changes.



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26 Oct 2012, 3:28 pm

What kept us from WW III was the fact the Soviets actually had a sense of self-preservation.

If we had been dealing with a bunch of religious fanatics in a situation like this that believed they'd get a trip to paradise for killing "infidels" on the other hand, we actually would have had WW III.



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26 Oct 2012, 4:46 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
What kept us from WW III was the fact the Soviets actually had a sense of self-preservation.

If we had been dealing with a bunch of religious fanatics in a situation like this that believed they'd get a trip to paradise for killing "infidels" on the other hand, we actually would have had WW III.


Let's not forget the running back and forth between two boardrooms full of officials at the UN Secretariat. The personality who has not yet been mentioned, and who was deeply embedded in maintaining a dialogue between the USA and the USSR was U Thant.


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26 Oct 2012, 4:56 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
What kept us from WW III was the fact the Soviets actually had a sense of self-preservation.

If we had been dealing with a bunch of religious fanatics in a situation like this that believed they'd get a trip to paradise for killing "infidels" on the other hand, we actually would have had WW III.


Let's not forget the running back and forth between two boardrooms full of officials at the UN Secretariat. The personality who has not yet been mentioned, and who was deeply embedded in maintaining a dialogue between the USA and the USSR was U Thant.


I highly doubt President Kennedy and the guy in charge of the Soviet Union cared what some idiot from the UN whined about.

What defused the situation is that the Soviets had a sense of self preservation, they also didn't want "Mother Russia" turning into a crater. Kennedy didn't actually want the US turned into a crater either.

Since both sides valued their own skins so to speak, the situation didn't result in WW III.



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26 Oct 2012, 5:07 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
I highly doubt President Kennedy and the guy in charge of the Soviet Union cared what some idiot from the UN whined about.

What defused the situation is that the Soviets had a sense of self preservation, they also didn't want "Mother Russia" turning into a crater. Kennedy didn't actually want the US turned into a crater either.

Since both sides valued their own skins so to speak, the situation didn't result in WW III.


Read some of that history that you pretend to be so well versed in.

All that you have demonstrated yourself capable of doing is ridiculing that which does not comform to your biases and prejudices. I don't care what you highly doubt, because you have demonstrated that its only basis lies in your close mindedness.


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26 Oct 2012, 5:09 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I highly doubt President Kennedy and the guy in charge of the Soviet Union cared what some idiot from the UN whined about.

What defused the situation is that the Soviets had a sense of self preservation, they also didn't want "Mother Russia" turning into a crater. Kennedy didn't actually want the US turned into a crater either.

Since both sides valued their own skins so to speak, the situation didn't result in WW III.


Read some of that history that you pretend to be so well versed in.

All that you have demonstrated yourself capable of doing is ridiculing that which does not comform to your biases and prejudices. I don't care what you highly doubt, because you have demonstrated that its only basis lies in your close mindedness.


:roll:

I was pointing out that neither side was made up of religious fanatics and had a sense of self preservation. If the leader of the USSR thought he would get a ticket to paradise by killing "Infidels" (Americans), then yeah there would have been World War III.



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26 Oct 2012, 5:31 pm

The Premier of the Soviet Union during the missile crisis was Nikita Khrushchev.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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27 Oct 2012, 12:46 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
The Premier of the Soviet Union during the missile crisis was Nikita Khrushchev.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you, couldn't think of his name at the time and didn't feel like looking it up.



Kraichgauer
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27 Oct 2012, 2:41 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The Premier of the Soviet Union during the missile crisis was Nikita Khrushchev.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you, couldn't think of his name at the time and didn't feel like looking it up.


You're welcome.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

I was pointing out that neither side was made up of religious fanatics and had a sense of self preservation. If the leader of the USSR thought he would get a ticket to paradise by killing "Infidels" (Americans), then yeah there would have been World War III.
\

The Commies may have been evil, but they were never insane. The same cannot be said of Jihadi Muslims. They are bat-sh*t crazy. Like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

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