Did Putin order the murder of a Russian spy?

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Campin_Cat
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21 Jan 2016, 7:55 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-19647226

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A public inquiry into the killing of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko has concluded that President Putin probably approved his assassination. But who was he and why did his death cause such controversy?

Former spy Alexander Litvinenko was killed in November 2006, leading to a clouding of relations between London and Moscow.

The 43-year-old had been an officer with the Federal Security Service (FSB), the successor to the KGB, but he fled to Britain where he became a fierce critic of the Kremlin. In his final years he also became a British citizen.

After he was killed by radioactive polonium-210, believed to have been administered in a cup of tea, it emerged the father-of-one was being paid by the British secret service MI6.

...

Born in the city of Voronezh in 1962, Mr Litvinenko joined a military unit of the Soviet Union's interior ministry in 1980 and reportedly joined the KGB eight years later.

He rose to the rank of lieutenant-colonel when the KGB became the FSB in the 1990s.

Mr Putin was his ultimate boss at the FSB but they reportedly fell out over corruption within the FSB.

In 1998, Mr Litvinenko was arrested on charges of abusing his office after exposing an alleged plot to assassinate Boris Berezovsky, the Russian tycoon who was found dead at his Ascot home in March 2013.

...

His widow has said he blamed the Kremlin as he lay dying in hospital, saying Russian President Vladimir Putin was responsible for "everything that happened to him". Russia denies any involvement.



There's obviously more to the story than what I quoted, but I can certainly see where it's plausible, and Putin certainly seems like, IMO, the kind to do it.




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Adamantium
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21 Jan 2016, 9:19 am

I don't think this has ever been in doubt.

You don't freelance an operation like that with an exotic substance like that.

People who get on the wrong side of Putin have a way of ending up dead. Nobody doubts that he directs this.

Putin has murdered many people, but I think this one, like Viktor Yushchenko's murder with exotic toxins in the Ukraine, was done in a particularly grisly, showy way to make a point. Like the muder of Anna Politkovskaya by FSB and former FSB officers, Putin was making it very clear that those who opposed him would be eliminated.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/03/europe/ru ... n-critics/

The real question is not did he do it, but how can he be brought to justice? It's impossible by conventional means. Maybe someone will put some polonium in his drink one day.

The thing that has always pissed me off about this was that they exposed a lot of people in London to radiation. How would Daesh be punished if they launched a similar radiological attack? Should the message go out to Iran and North Korea that this kind of thing is fine as long as you have nukes and act like a psychopath?

Somehow, I don't have confidence that Cameron has anything like the intestinal fortitude needed to handle a problem like this.



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21 Jan 2016, 9:36 am

If he didn't order it, then he may have given his tacit endorsement.

Polonium 210 is a radioactive substance that is produced only in supernova explosions, nuclear reactors, and particle accelerators, where irradiating bismuth with high-energy neutrons or protons yields polonium. About 100 grams are produced each year, practically all of it in Russia. It is not exactly something that anyone can pick up at the neighborhood drugstore.

Thus, someone with a lot of money and influence in or on the Russian government gave the order. Someone with a grudge, perhaps - a personal motive for killing someone in a painful way over the course of a week. Someone who acts with impunity, and without fear of reprisal from the victim's family.

All of that does narrow down the list of suspects to just a few highly-place officials in the Russian government.


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Jacoby
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21 Jan 2016, 10:55 am

There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods, Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.



Adamantium
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21 Jan 2016, 11:20 am

Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more too? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?


This would make a sort of sense if the evidence against Lugovoi and Kovtun were not so clear. Wherever they went, traces of Polonium were detected. A significant quantity was found in the drain pipe under Kovtun's hotel sink. The idea that someone else did it and all this radioactive contamination just happened to show up wherever they went is beyond belief.

This is not all kinds of shadowy possibilities-its very hard evidence pointing at the killers. Lugovoi is a hero in russia for having done it and it was totally clear that he was being protected from the top.

I don't think the CIA would kill a rogue agent with exotic radioactive elements when a bullet or blade would do--they reserved that kind of nonsense for Castro.



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21 Jan 2016, 11:59 am

Evidence doesn't really count for much when we're talking intelligence agencies and regardless if it was done under the orders of the FSB, Litvinenko was considered a traitor who's death is only sympathetic for which the manner of how he died. Would people care if somebody plugged him walking home from the pub? Litvinenko's family said he was working for M16 and it has been accused that he outed the names of undercover Russian spies in the UK, I'm sure he knew the risks of what he was doing. His death was meant to be a public spectacle whoever did it, it's still being used as a propaganda piece by the west who have gotten many more miles out of his death than any other information they got from him when he was alive but I don't think it should surprise anyone that a turncoat Russian spy got killed either.



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21 Jan 2016, 2:58 pm

The Federal Security Service is one of the successor organisations of the Soviet Committee of State Security (KGB). Following the attempted coup of 1991—in which some KGB units as well as the KGB head Vladimir Kryuchkov played a major part—the KGB was dismantled and ceased to exist from November 1991.According to some unofficial sources since 1999, the FSB has also been tasked with the intelligence-gathering on the territory of the CIS countries



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22 Jan 2016, 7:52 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Evidence doesn't really count for much when we're talking intelligence agencies and regardless if it was done under the orders of the FSB, Litvinenko was considered a traitor who's death is only sympathetic for which the manner of how he died. Would people care if somebody plugged him walking home from the pub? Litvinenko's family said he was working for M16 and it has been accused that he outed the names of undercover Russian spies in the UK, I'm sure he knew the risks of what he was doing. His death was meant to be a public spectacle whoever did it, it's still being used as a propaganda piece by the west who have gotten many more miles out of his death than any other information they got from him when he was alive but I don't think it should surprise anyone that a turncoat Russian spy got killed either.


But double agents are hardly a novelty; they've been around as long as intelligence has been gathered. Sometimes such agents are coerced by threats or blackmail, or act out of greed, or are even genuinely dedicated to the other side. Litvinenko might very well have fit into the last category, as he says he had been genuinely disgusted by what he described as Putin's machinations for military expansion, as well as his alleged unhealthy interest in children.


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23 Jan 2016, 1:59 am

Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods, Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


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23 Jan 2016, 2:10 am

Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods., Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


There is no way to determine who did it or have any reason to trust our government in saying they did, it does not matter much to me as it kind of comes with the the territory of the business Litvinenko was in



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23 Jan 2016, 2:44 am

Jacoby wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods., Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


There is no way to determine who did it or have any reason to trust our government in saying they did, it does not matter much to me as it kind of comes with the the territory of the business Litvinenko was in


What if he was right? Doesn't that matter for anything?


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Jacoby
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23 Jan 2016, 9:43 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods., Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


There is no way to determine who did it or have any reason to trust our government in saying they did, it does not matter much to me as it kind of comes with the the territory of the business Litvinenko was in


What if he was right? Doesn't that matter for anything?


He left the country in 2000, most of his accusations that he could even remotely make plausible were pretty unimpressive. He was working with M16, making all kinds of accusations, being used a pawn for propaganda purposes



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23 Jan 2016, 7:42 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods., Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


There is no way to determine who did it or have any reason to trust our government in saying they did, it does not matter much to me as it kind of comes with the the territory of the business Litvinenko was in


What if he was right? Doesn't that matter for anything?


He left the country in 2000, most of his accusations that he could even remotely make plausible were pretty unimpressive. He was working with M16, making all kinds of accusations, being used a pawn for propaganda purposes


Even if that's so, does that justify putting him through such a miserable and prolonged death?


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24 Jan 2016, 4:59 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
There is no way to determine who killed really Litvinenko, you can assume but he was involved with multiple intelligence agencies and still was maintaining contact with parts of the FSB iirc as well as some dangerous non-state figures. When you play that game, just like if you play the drug game on the corners, then you should expect to get whacked. It would be no different if a CIA agent went rogue with state secrets, most Americans would consider them a traitor who signed their own death warrant. Who was Litvinenko worth dead more to? Maybe not as obvious as you think, who is still talking about the guy?

Also, it's funny that we talk about this murder but you do know that there have a been a lot of funny deaths of certain people in the United States as well? Lot of one car crashes and "suicides" deep in the woods., Look up Michael Hastings and what immediately proceeded his death, he knew they were after him and it was because he strayed to close to the truth.


So, Putin didn't do it, and also, the guy had it coming?

Also, moral equivalence isn't an argument.


There is no way to determine who did it or have any reason to trust our government in saying they did, it does not matter much to me as it kind of comes with the the territory of the business Litvinenko was in


What if he was right? Doesn't that matter for anything?


He left the country in 2000, most of his accusations that he could even remotely make plausible were pretty unimpressive. He was working with M16, making all kinds of accusations, being used a pawn for propaganda purposes


Even if that's so, does that justify putting him through such a miserable and prolonged death?


Short reply- NO



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24 Jan 2016, 5:22 pm

^^^
Thank you.


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24 Jan 2016, 6:59 pm

Your Welcome. :lol: